why joe frazier beats lennox lewis

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by gattiwarrior, Jun 18, 2011.


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  1. Armstrong!

    Armstrong! Active Member Full Member

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    Was Frazier the same fighter? No, he wasn't.

    Was Frazier shot? HELL NO HE WASN'T!

    Shot does NOT mean that he is simply removed from his prime. It means that he was a completely useless fighter!

    Ali was shot against Holmes!
    Moore was shot against Ali!
    Rahman is shot now!

    Just because a fighter isn't peaked, doesn't instantly make him shot!
     
    Armstrong!, Jun 21, 2011
    Armstrong!, Jun 21, 2011
    #76
  2. Armstrong!

    Armstrong! Active Member Full Member

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    :patsch
     
    Armstrong!, Jun 21, 2011
    Armstrong!, Jun 21, 2011
    #77
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Only seen two active fighters who were shot
    Eugene Criqui and Cleveland Williams.:think
     
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    #78
  4. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    Let me guess, you're pissed because Joe Frazier knocked your hero on his ass, in the most important fight of all-time, in the match-up when both men were nearest their peaks, on the night when both men realized this was forever the most important moment of their careers.
     
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    #79
  5. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    Excellent, insightful post.
     
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    #80
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    FOTC Joe Frazier was a great fighter, it was his crowning moment and,in some ways his swansong.
     
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    #81
  7. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    I agree with your entire statement.

    Frazier was never the same after the FOTC. Ali fought a great fight that night and took a lot out of Joe.

    Joe should have retired. Durham advised that.

    For a fighter of limited physical attributes (at least compared to Foreman and Ali) losing that hungry, eye of the tiger edge that Frazier had until 3/8/71 meant a whole bunch.

    Frazier had to be at the absolute top of his game in order to be the champ, in that era.
     
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    #82
  8. Goyourownway

    Goyourownway Insanity enthusiast Full Member

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    Do you really think you're in a position to be accusing others of hero worship? You're the one getting emotional here simply because I happened to discredit a fighter you clearly have some great attachment to.And the only time I ever see you posting around these parts is when a Frazier topic pops up.



    Ali isn't,wasn't,and never will a hero to me.I don't particularly enjoy watching him box,and I generally don't make excuses for any losses,poor showings or questionable choice of opposition that took part on his part.It just so happens that I've never rated Cherry Pickin' Joe very highly.He was never,at any point in his career,a great fighter.He was matched carefully his entire career,avoided punchers and fought few men that were actually ranked in the top ten.His whole legacy and relevancy in life is based on his association with another fighter.His entire life and career is defined by another man.





    If you and the rest of the Frazier apologists wish to cling onto a single win over a man that had fought just eighteen rounds in four years,then continue to do so.Unfortunately for you and your sort,Ali's long-winded struggle against a slow,inactive Oscar Bonavena exists in it's entirety.
     
    Goyourownway, Jun 21, 2011
    Goyourownway, Jun 21, 2011
    #83
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Three things about this.

    1) Ali fought 18 rounds in four moths as well as four years. If he wasn't sharp after one year training and stopping two top contenders in that space of time, he never would be again.

    2) Ali became the first and only man to stop Bonavena in their fight. Long winded? If you like, I suppose, but less long winded as a % than every single other man who ever fought him.

    3) Ali turned in an incredible performance in FOTC. Which is still one of the most celebrated, written about, talked about and watched fights of all time.


    So I think you may be seen stretching things a bit.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2011
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2011
    #84
  10. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    :nut
     
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    yancey, Jun 21, 2011
    #85
  11. Goyourownway

    Goyourownway Insanity enthusiast Full Member

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    We're talking about three and a half years of inactivity here.A man at his absolute peak,a boxer entirely dependant on speed and reflexes - the worst possible style to emerge from a lenthy absence - and you think a short three rounder and one full fight would nullify all that rust that had been picked up in the conditioning?


    Why would he not be sharp again? He fought ten times over the next two years,fighting almost every other month and against rated opposition,for the most part.He was much better prepared when he lost to Norton than he was for Frazier.






    So? How does that change the fact that he looked dreadful? Disregarding the neutral corner and stopping an equally gassed Bonavena on a three knockdown rule doesn't negate what had already taken place.He was absolutely dire.Clearly the performance of a man that was still had alot of rust to work off and who's conditioning was an obvious problem.




    So I should just ignore the circumstances of Ali's preparations for this fight just because it happened to be a big event? Just to give Frazier his one and only win over a great fighter?
     
    Goyourownway, Jun 21, 2011
    Goyourownway, Jun 21, 2011
    #86
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, followed by intensive training and two - two - warm up fights agianst top line boxers by a fighter in his physical prime. Recently we saw Vitali Klitschko return to title action after a spell out without any warm ups.

    Why is it the worst style ever to emerge from a lengthy absence? That's hyperbole. A 15 round volume puncher carrying 180 or 200lbs would be far, far worse. -

    Yeah. And I have an astonishing performance on film to back that up.

    Certainly Ali looks no better in Frazier one in terms of "speed and reflexes" than he does in Frazier two, at which time he had had way, way more rounds. Rounds that made no difference to these supposedly massively impacted attributes.

    It's the evidence of your eyes versus hyperbole.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQhFhdmW6Vs[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzhcpM2rDjk&feature=related[/ame]

    If Ali was badly conditioned in I, as you infer, the evidence suggests he was at no time in his career better conditioned up to that point.


    What evidence on film would you supply to back your argument?








    Few fighters look good against an iron-chinned swarmer with awkward angles and style. You have to be genuinely world class to stop them. If you really think he was "dreadful" a long, hard look is in order.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6QJRL6ARlE[/ame]

    This is instructive from about 30 seconds. Ali lands at will, doesn't take a single flush punch and does a lot of grappling. Basically, he has it all his own way. At about a minute, mad Howard bemoans "the almost total lack of movement" just as Ali waves Bonavena in.

    Do you think Oscar was plucked out of a hat? This fight was made specifically to allow Ali to "train" for Frazier. He practiced the flat-footed style he knew he would have to use for spells against Frazier, a style, actually, that he had been nurturing since his training for the Liston fight. A shorter, supposedly stronger bruiser who was going to make it hot. You say that Ali looked "awful." You claim he was not prepared. What I see is a fighter preparing a new style for a fight he know he will need it in against a perfect dummy opponent and still winning easily.

    If you really think that Ali didn't fight on his toes in this round because he couldn't, because he hadn't boxed much, you are wrong.

    One-twos against a man coming in, fought at the range he was (at best) going to be made to fight at, loads of grappling, small slips, even working specifically on the lunging left hook on defence, this is one of Ali's finest moments and he never gets credit, wonderful self-imposed rules and the kind of discipline you just don't see from fighters. Ironically that is because of their ego, the fighters ego needs to be fed with an opponents suffering, Ali's ego was so towering he didn't need it. Bonavena was a bug, he got squashed.

    "Dreadful."

    I just can't believe this kind of write-off of an uncrackable chin being cracked. Unique stoppages are always a sure-fire sign, but you're writing it off as...


    Ali's preperation was superb. Bonavena was a 15 round sparring partner in a staged match, unstoppable on paper who got stopped. Perfect prep.


    And no, it' snot about Frazier getting made up due, it's about what Ali actually did as much as it is that.

    They fought three times. Frazier was at his best for 1 of them and he won. Ali was at his best for 0 of them and he won two. But FOTC Ali is clearly superior to Manilla on film and no better than II Ali on film. So I have no idea what you are banging on about, in honesty.

    It happens to a lot of guys. I think they are upset because it isn't '67 Ali in there. We all are. But anything else is just noise.
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2011
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2011
    #87
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Are you saying that if Ali had another 15 rounds under his belt before he fought Frazier it would have made no difference to the out come ?
    Because his camp and close students of his preparations disagree with you including Jose Torres who stated Ali was unsure of his stamina thats why he resorted to the ropes so often,he didn't trust his wind and legs. I think Ali looked average against Bonavena and the Quarry fight was inconclusive .
     
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    #88
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, i'm saying if he had another 50 rounds under his belt the result wouldn't have been different.

    What, Jose Torres Ali's best friend thinks Ali might have won if things were different? Well I am overwhelmed...

    Seriously, he's entitled to his opinion, but I don't pay to much attention.

    Why do you think he was on the ropes and the corner so often against Frazier and Foreman?
     
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2011
    McGrain, Jun 21, 2011
    #89
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Vitali came back against a one dimensional fat clubber and I picked him to beat him with confidence.Ali was facing the best fighter in the world.18rds in 4 years is not superb preparation at all ,you can't cram all the action into a couple of months, any boxer knows it is a lengthy process ,getting back to what you were ,regaining your reflexes,and timing, just getting used to being hit again is strange.
    Bonavena may have been kod only once but his chin was hardly uncrackable he was floored quite a few times.
     
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    mcvey, Jun 21, 2011
    #90
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