Why never a Whitaker-Chavez rematch?

Get weird much?

 

Cheers mate. At the end of the day Chavez losing to Randall was probably the most significant factor yes.

 

Chavez lost a lot more. Whitaker had a style that he could use effectively against welters, Chavez did not.
Welterweight was too big for Chavez and I doubt you can really dispute that.
Trinidad, Espana and Quartey were the other main belt holders at the time and I can't see Chavez beating them either.

 

I don't disagree with much here in a sense. I do think Chavez wasn't as able to adapt to bigger weights like Whitaker. I was simply talking about the fact that you didn't believe Whitaker lost much and fought similar to how he did at LW. That is what I disagreed with.

 

Maybe Chavez didn't really "view himself as the best" then.
He was gifted a draw and failed to take Whitaker's title. I doubt he made any statement about being the best based on that.
Most people thought Whitaker was the best. He was champion too.
Chavez didn't attempt to challenge him again.
I don't see where or how anything Chavez did there suggested he walked away from the fight thinking it any sort of victory.

It's almost as if the myth of Chavez is being used as a stick to beat the real Chavez with.

As for your examples :
RJJ-Tarver was close, hence the rematch. RJJ was champ at that weight and Tarver was a leading challenger still and keen, so the fight made sense.

Ali gets criticized for failing to meet Norton for a 4th time, after the controversial 3rd match. Also, he failed to rematch Young, who many thought outboxed him.

You've already made a case that Chavez somehow owed Whitaker a rematch more than Leonard owed Hagler, which I disagree with.
Leonard certainly didn't "make a point to prove himself" better than Hagler, he took the hotly disputed win and retired. We agree it was his right to do so ultimately.

You implied on the first page that Chavez gets a pass for being "a real fighter", I take it you mean his style of fighting and his non-slick "blue collar" image, compared to the slick, flash, boxers like SRL.
But Chavez isn't getting a pass at all really. He's being held up against some unrealistic image of himself. Everyone knew Whitaker had overtaken him on any "p4p" list with the fight, and everyone knew Whitaker was welterweight champion. Did Chavez overtly pretend otherwise ?

The judges were at fault with the draw verdict. Everyone knew that. Everyone reckoned Chavez lost. I don't see why Chavez is supposed to attempt to prove anything. He held the 140 title and went and defended it, like champs do.
A Whitaker rematch would have been good for fans and for Whitaker (who deserved justice) but I don't see much incentive for Chavez. In my opinion less so than for Leonard with Hagler, where a good number of people were of the opinion that Hagler had been robbed of a title he had held well for so long. The SRL-Hagler fight changed the landscape to Hagler's detriment and SRL's huge benefit. But Chavez's only benefit was a "D" on his record that should have been an "L", Whitaker definitely got the short end of that fact, being denied the "W" but he kept his title AND gained the so-called "p4p" top spot in the process !

Whitaker became "nr 1 p4p" undisputably (if such a title is possible).

If you want to retroactively revise the supposed "p4p" pecking order of the previous few years and declare Whitaker the superior of Chavez for the whole era, that's fair too.
I don't see why not.

I don't know what Chavez "believed".
Let's assume he believed he was nr 2 then !

Perhaps he just got schooled by a better boxer and perhaps the judges' messed up the result.

 

If Chavez should be criticized like he is being it would be for failing to give Frankie Randall a immediate rubber match !

 

I believe in the interviews after the fight, Chavez said he thought he won the fight. He said all Whitaker did was run, and didn't land anything significant, when in reality, Whitaker landed the harder more telling blows. Chavez was never hurt per se, and had a solid chin, but there are a few times in the bout that Chavez got stopped dead in his tracks and looked rattled a little. If Chavez had given Whitaker more credit, that would've portrayed him in a different light, but still talking about how you won... how can you then say "we're using a 'stick' to beat the real Chavez". He's the one who was still saying he won that fight correct?

 

The oil on this one is -

Randall wanted to rematch Chavez saying he had the title he still wanted. King gave him a consolation prize via a title fight against Coggi. King stated if he beat Coggi and Chavez beat Taylor he would put them together in a much anticipated rubber match. When both won King suddenly changed his tune and said Randall would have to beat Whitaker.

It then went to poop.

Randall was openly chasing an immediate rubber match in the media whilst also being careful not to overly criticise Don King as after finally getting on the gravy train he did not want to risk being kicked off.

 

I watched Randall/Coggi I on tape recently

After Randall won, Ferdie Pacheco said something to the effect of "If Randall doesn't get a Chavez fight now something stinks in boxing."

It sure did.

You can tell Randall has his doubts it will happen. His post fight comments are "I'll fight anyone Don King puts in front of me."

Everyone knew Chavez was King's main meal ticket.

 

Frankie had to do whatever King told him to unfortunately. We all know what a crook King was, deplorable. Their second fight stunk to high heaven. Realistically the governing body should have stipulated an immediate rematch imo. King probably had them in his pocket too.

Pretty sure if Randall was King's big meal ticket and lost under the circs he did in the rematch they would have been back in there quicker than you can say Don King.

 

I don't know what Chavez said.
If he said he thought he won, yes, that is stupid. At least it is wrong and we would all disagree with him. But it's not unusual for a fighter to say that, however bad it is.
Obviously Chavez's management/promoter didn't think he'd won, or they would have chased the rematch more than Whitaker's.
Chavez was looking for a title in a fourth weight division. If he really believed he deserved it or could beat Whitaker and had any say in the matter, it would have been made.

The point or me is, Chavez was NOT rated as #1 p4p as he left the ring. And even prior to the fight, Whitaker was rated as the best boxer in the world by more than a few boxing 'purists'.
The criticisms of Chavez for not fighting Whitaker again, or the suggestion that he "owed" Whitaker a rematch seem to buy into the legend of Chavez far too much. You have to raise Chavez to some hugely mythical status to believe he carried this responsiblity to "grant" Whitaker a rematch. He doesn't have that status for me, certainly not when Pernell Whitaker is the opponent. As great (and popular) as Chavez was, this was a "double A side" match up. Whitaker wasn't some no-name unknown being denied fame, championship and glory, or ousted from his championship. Chavez was the challenger who got a bit "lucky" with some corrupt judges and was gifted a draw to preserve his official unbeaten record. Both were star fighters.

Whitaker was the welterweight champion. Whitaker was the man, pound-for-pound, according to most - and certainly better than Chavez at that point and probably at any point, head to head.
It was settled. The verdict just proved that the judges' stink. Whitaker's status (already considerable) did not diminish. No title changed hands. No one would under any illusions as to who the better fighter was.

 

Yeah. I kind of stopped following Chavez after the Randall fights. It was obvious he was over-the-hill and the lustre had worn off and his career was being protected by these dubious decisions. He was no longer a top 10 pound-for-pound fighter and had become far less of an attraction to all knowledgeable fans, barring his most loyal partisan supporters.

 

Whitaker and his team probably did feel they had nothing to prove. But, Chavez brought big $$ so I can see why they would want a re-match.

I can also understand why Don King would steer Chavez clear of a re-match given that Chavez was lucky to get a draw and had a rabbid fan base from which to make plenty of $$ without facing Whitaker again.

I will add that Chavez's stature was probably 1A before the fight.

Yes, many thought Pernell was #1 but a lot of people thought the same about Chavez.

But, yes, after the fight, almost everyone thought Pernell was now #1.