Why nobody could have matched Joe Louis's record

di tullio · Nov 28, 2010

I used to be dismissive of Joe. My first time really watching him blew my mind.

Swarmer · Nov 28, 2010

Dempsey1238 said: ↑

I think Walcott should have goting a 3rd match.

Leading to round 11, Louis was down and and loseing on points. Louis luck out when Walcott traded with him in round 11 and Louis made sure Walcott would not get out of that exchange with out a knockout or at least a knockdown.

It was almost like Louis Conn I all over again.
Click to expand...

Well yeah, that fight was the swansong of Louis' real career. It was fine for him to bow out at that point; it was clear he was nothing like he had been before and so he retired. And if it wasn't for his shittastic financial situation he would have stayed that way.

Seamus · Nov 28, 2010

janitor said: ↑

Joe Louis held the heavyweight title for 11 years, which is about the same period of time that Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. That in itself should provide some frame of reference for how deeply his title reign would have been etched upon the consciousness of contemporary boxing fans. Not only did Louis have the longest title reign of any heavyweight champion, he also had the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class, including the era of multiple title belts. This was done despite the fact that he fought a consistently high level of opposition. In all he fought 33 opponents who were currently ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine, and all but two of them were fought in the period before he retired as champion.

So what do you have to do to match his record?

What you would have to do?
Joe Louis defeated Max Baer 14 months after he turned professional and he defeated Jersey Joe Walcott 13 years later when he was well past his prime. Both of these fighters are top 30 all time heavyweights and he was fighting a consistently high level of opposition in between.

He was defeated by Max Schmeling in his second year as a professional fighter and would suffer his next defeat at the hands of Ezzard Charles 14 years later. The three fighters who defeated him all won the lineal heavyweight title outside of their fights with Louis and were top 30 all time heavyweights.

Before his induction into the army Louis defended the title 4.5 times a year on average and the majority of his challengers were ranked contenders.

What it would take?

It would have taken the ability to retain focus and train hard after you had won the title, so Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe are excluded.

It would obviously have taken a style suited for longevity, so Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier are excluded despite their superior training habits.

It would have taken a chin that would not allow the punchers chance to prevail, which rules out Lennox Lewis.

It would take the ability to cope with fighters of every size, shape and style imaginable.

It would take the ability to beat elite fighters nine months into your professional career, unless you would stagger the whole title reign forward bodily by a year. It would have taken the ability to beat Max Baer 14 months in and Joe Walcott 13 years latter. That would exclude virtually everybody.

For most of the great champions, the question is not whether they could have matched Louiss record, but whether they would have even tried. Most would have taken easier fights less frequently.

Could anybody else have done it?

It is my opinion that the only heavyweight with a serious chance of replicating Joe Louiss title reign is Muhammad Ali, and that scenario is not without issues. Larry Holmes might perhaps have had the capacity for longevity, but I doubt that he would have taken on such stiff opposition so regularly, and if he had he would likely have lost at some point.

In summary I submit that Louis deserves his position at a consensus top two all time heavyweight, either based on resume or head to head.
Click to expand...

I agree with much said here. However, if you lined up Louis' title challengers, I think Lennox Lewis could go through them in a year. His only problem would be focus, not chin. He lost to McCall due to focus issues (lax training, filming a stupid movie and hanging out with his Holywood friends, not acclimating himself). And let's face it, Buddy Baer and Abe Simon are not going to KO the any version of Lewis to enter the ring. I also give Ali and Holmes good shots, as well as Corrie Sanders, the Sniper.

Il Duce · Nov 28, 2010

We also have to give Joe an A+ for his service record.
Not having any fights for 2 1/2 years (April 1942 -November 1944).

He may have had an additional 6 to 8 fights, albeit some weak opponents.

Seamus · Nov 28, 2010

Il Duce said: ↑

We also have to give Joe an A+ for his service record.
Not having any fights for 2 1/2 years (April 1942 -November 1944).

He may have had an additional 6 to 8 fights, albeit some weak opponents.
Click to expand...

And an F to the US Government for penalizing the man for not paying taxes on the purses he donated the Armed Forces Relief Funds.

Dempsey1238 · Nov 28, 2010

Seamus said: ↑

I agree with much said here. However, if you lined up Louis' title challengers, I think Lennox Lewis could go through them in a year. His only problem would be focus, not chin. He lost to McCall due to focus issues (lax training, filming a stupid movie and hanging out with his Holywood friends, not acclimating himself). And let's face it, Buddy Baer and Abe Simon are not going to KO the any version of Lewis to enter the ring. I also give Ali and Holmes good shots, as well as Corrie Sanders, the Sniper.
Click to expand...

I dont think Lewis could go through them in a year.

But in real life, Lewis in Louis time frame, would did with building the fight, training, selling the fight, and battling over price of the sales with the promoter of the other guy.

I dont think Lewis could get the fights in a year time.

Jear · Nov 29, 2010

Il Duce said: ↑

We also have to give Joe an A+ for his service record.
Not having any fights for 2 1/2 years (April 1942 -November 1944).

He may have had an additional 6 to 8 fights, albeit some weak opponents.
Click to expand...

Also some very good opponents too.
Jimmy Bivins, Lee Q Murray, Curtis Sheppard, Melio Bettina, Turkey Thompson were all in good form during the period Joe was in the Army. Lem Franklin probably deserved the shot Abe Simon got in March 42 having KOd Simon in his previous fight. None of those guys ever got to face Louis

Foreman Hook · Nov 29, 2010

janitor said: ↑

Joe Louis held the heavyweight title for 11 years, which is about the same period of time that Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. That in itself should provide some frame of reference for how deeply his title reign would have been etched upon the consciousness of contemporary boxing fans. Not only did Louis have the longest title reign of any heavyweight champion, he also had the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class, including the era of multiple title belts. This was done despite the fact that he fought a consistently high level of opposition. In all he fought 33 opponents who were currently ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine, and all but two of them were fought in the period before he retired as champion.

So what do you have to do to match his record?

What you would have to do?
Joe Louis defeated Max Baer 14 months after he turned professional and he defeated Jersey Joe Walcott 13 years later when he was well past his prime. Both of these fighters are top 30 all time heavyweights and he was fighting a consistently high level of opposition in between.

He was defeated by Max Schmeling in his second year as a professional fighter and would suffer his next defeat at the hands of Ezzard Charles 14 years later. The three fighters who defeated him all won the lineal heavyweight title outside of their fights with Louis and were top 30 all time heavyweights.

Before his induction into the army Louis defended the title 4.5 times a year on average and the majority of his challengers were ranked contenders.

What it would take?

It would have taken the ability to retain focus and train hard after you had won the title, so Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe are excluded.

It would obviously have taken a style suited for longevity, so Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier are excluded despite their superior training habits.

It would have taken a chin that would not allow the punchers chance to prevail, which rules out Lennox Lewis.

It would take the ability to cope with fighters of every size, shape and style imaginable.

It would take the ability to beat elite fighters nine months into your professional career, unless you would stagger the whole title reign forward bodily by a year. It would have taken the ability to beat Max Baer 14 months in and Joe Walcott 13 years latter. That would exclude virtually everybody.

For most of the great champions, the question is not whether they could have matched Louiss record, but whether they would have even tried. Most would have taken easier fights less frequently.

Could anybody else have done it?

It is my opinion that the only heavyweight with a serious chance of replicating Joe Louiss title reign is Muhammad Ali, and that scenario is not without issues. Larry Holmes might perhaps have had the capacity for longevity, but I doubt that he would have taken on such stiff opposition so regularly, and if he had he would likely have lost at some point.

In summary I submit that Louis deserves his position at a consensus top two all time heavyweight, either based on resume or head to head.
Click to expand...

Dumb-Dumb ****ing shitty excuse - Tyson was 100% PEAK/PRIME when journey-man Douglas KHTFO. :deal

It EASY to say he didnt train Hard or focus AFTER he KTFO by a ****ing BUM. :deal

Show me some EVIDENCE of Tyson stopping training hard And focus???
He Ripped-as-**** in EVERY fight of his of 1986-1997,, i HATE him - BUT he train like a ****ing mini-bodybuilder And you gotta give teh **** credit for it. :deal

Foreman Hoooooook! :hat

Foreman Hook · Nov 29, 2010

janitor said: ↑

Joe Louis held the heavyweight title for 11 years, which is about the same period of time that Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. That in itself should provide some frame of reference for how deeply his title reign would have been etched upon the consciousness of contemporary boxing fans. Not only did Louis have the longest title reign of any heavyweight champion, he also had the longest title reign of any champion in any weight class, including the era of multiple title belts. This was done despite the fact that he fought a consistently high level of opposition. In all he fought 33 opponents who were currently ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine, and all but two of them were fought in the period before he retired as champion.

So what do you have to do to match his record?

What you would have to do?
Joe Louis defeated Max Baer 14 months after he turned professional and he defeated Jersey Joe Walcott 13 years later when he was well past his prime. Both of these fighters are top 30 all time heavyweights and he was fighting a consistently high level of opposition in between.

He was defeated by Max Schmeling in his second year as a professional fighter and would suffer his next defeat at the hands of Ezzard Charles 14 years later. The three fighters who defeated him all won the lineal heavyweight title outside of their fights with Louis and were top 30 all time heavyweights.

Before his induction into the army Louis defended the title 4.5 times a year on average and the majority of his challengers were ranked contenders.

What it would take?

It would have taken the ability to retain focus and train hard after you had won the title, so Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Sonny Liston, Mike Tyson and Riddick Bowe are excluded.

It would obviously have taken a style suited for longevity, so Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier are excluded despite their superior training habits.

It would have taken a chin that would not allow the punchers chance to prevail, which rules out Lennox Lewis.

It would take the ability to cope with fighters of every size, shape and style imaginable.

It would take the ability to beat elite fighters nine months into your professional career, unless you would stagger the whole title reign forward bodily by a year. It would have taken the ability to beat Max Baer 14 months in and Joe Walcott 13 years latter. That would exclude virtually everybody.

For most of the great champions, the question is not whether they could have matched Louiss record, but whether they would have even tried. Most would have taken easier fights less frequently.

Could anybody else have done it?

It is my opinion that the only heavyweight with a serious chance of replicating Joe Louiss title reign is Muhammad Ali, and that scenario is not without issues. Larry Holmes might perhaps have had the capacity for longevity, but I doubt that he would have taken on such stiff opposition so regularly, and if he had he would likely have lost at some point.

In summary I submit that Louis deserves his position at a consensus top two all time heavyweight, either based on resume or head to head.
Click to expand...

Watch And learn you idiot ***** -
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIRShCBKwng[/ame]

Lenny Lewis had one of teh GREATEST cheens OAT. :deal

It a better chin then 99% And v.nearly All ATGs - it better then Holmes's, Tysons', Frazier's, Dempsey's, Listons', young Ali's, Moorers' , Norton's ETC ETC ETC. :hi:

Foreman Hooooooooooook!:hat

Bokaj · Nov 29, 2010

You make some very good points, Janitor. Those points are why I have Louis in my top 10 p4p. Fantastic fighter.

If the whole draft thing didn't happen we would know by now if Ali could have equalled or even surpassed Joe's great record. As you suggest, I think it boils down to if he could have kept his focus long enough.

In the 60's Ali always was in shape when fighting, but after the lay-off it was a different story. That was probably partly down both to getting more complacent with age and getting used to more comfortable habits during the years he was away from boxing. So the question is for how long he could have kept the focus he had at least until 67'.

janitor · Nov 29, 2010

Seamus said: ↑

I agree with much said here. However, if you lined up Louis' title challengers, I think Lennox Lewis could go through them in a year. His only problem would be focus, not chin. He lost to McCall due to focus issues (lax training, filming a stupid movie and hanging out with his Holywood friends, not acclimating himself). And let's face it, Buddy Baer and Abe Simon are not going to KO the any version of Lewis to enter the ring. I also give Ali and Holmes good shots, as well as Corrie Sanders, the Sniper.
Click to expand...

Lewis is not a bad shout. I will set aside as hyperbole your comment about him being able to beat all of Louis's title challengers inside a year, which obviously nobody could do.

I guess my conclusion is that Lewis was always going to walk into that fatefull bomb sooner or later, and if he were fighting with the sort of frequency Louis fought then the odds of this happening get that much shorter.

It is not a question of who would do it so much as who Lewis would make the mistake against.

PowerPuncher · Nov 29, 2010

dELETE

PowerPuncher · Nov 29, 2010

How I see them going:

Ali: I can't see anyone bar Walcott past his prime really troubling him

Lewis: Yes he was ko'd twice, but his chin is proven, and the punchers he faced were more devastating and technically better than the ones Joe's faced. His main problem was underestimating his opponents, but Joe himself did this on 1 occasion

Holmes: I really can't see anyone except Walcott bothering him

Tyson: lets imagine he has Louis's manager instead of Don King and doesn't goto jail at least. Who's going to derail him? There is no Holyfield type there, or a big jab and move merchant like Douglas. The big slow guys are bread and butter for Tyson as would be a 168lb Conn

Johnson: He has longevity to compare himself so certainly not out the question. Walcott may well beat him ofcourse (as maybe he deserved to against Louis) but he has a good chance of replicating what Louis did

Holyfield: IS there anyone as good as Bowe/Lewis/Moorer to derail him? Maybe he'd slip up if he brawled with Baer and Schmelling could give him problems (well the first version Louis fought). Walcott likely beats a past prime version

Foreman: I think Foreman probably gets outboxed down the line by someone but I wouldn't count on it. I think Conn is too small to stay away from him for 15rounds. He likely loses to Walcott past his prime but if he lands on Walcott its over

Frazier/Marciano - Rocky had the benefit of not fighting significantly past his prime and I think he likely suffers if he does. He doesn't have the style to fight at the top for 10years and Frazier probably doesn't. Fraziers style could see him ko'd near his prime too although prime for prime they are favorites against everyone on the list

Dempsey - the slow lumbering guys he likely eats up although if he lunges in ala Firpo there is a chance of an upset. Walcott would beat a past prime Dempsey. Schmelling may beat him in his prime

Liston - Liston is favorite over everyone on the list, past his prime though Walcott likely outboxes him but Liston obviously carries the punchers chance much like Louis

Il Duce · Nov 29, 2010

Besides being a great fighter, Joe Louis was loved by EVERYONE.

He also made some great statements.
But he let his fists do the talking.
And never made an excuse.

janitor · Nov 29, 2010

PowerPuncher said: ↑

How I see them going:

Click to expand...

A few observations:

Ali: I can't see anyone bar Walcott past his prime really troubling him

Click to expand...

Ali had problems with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper early in his career, and fighting to Louis's schedule he would be thrown in against better fighters sooner.

Also, later in his career when he is slowing down he is not going to have Louis's power to bail him out against people like Walcott.

Lewis: Yes he was ko'd twice, but his chin is proven, and the punchers he faced were more devastating and technically better than the ones Joe's faced. His main problem was underestimating his opponents, but Joe himself did this on 1 occasion

Click to expand...

I don't think that McCall or Ramhan were exceptional punchers. There were certainly people like them in Louis's era, and we are going to be matching Lewis against more of them, more often, and sooner.

Is Lewis really going to be ready for Max Baer 14 months after his professional debut for example?

Holmes: I really can't see anyone except Walcott bothering him

Click to expand...

Holmes had his hands full with the best fighters of his own era, and frankly I dont think they were as good as the best that Louis faced.

If we match Holmes against more elite fighters, more often and much ealrier in his career then the chances are that something is going to give.

In practice of course, Holmes would have taken easier matches, less frequently like he did in hius own era.

Tyson: lets imagine he has Louis's manager instead of Don King and doesn't goto jail at least. Who's going to derail him? There is no Holyfield type there, or a big jab and move merchant like Douglas. The big slow guys are bread and butter for Tyson as would be a 168lb Conn

Click to expand...

Why should we assume any of those things?

There were pleanty of awfull managers back then, and pleanty of opportunities for a guy like Tyson to get himself into trouble.

The bottom line is that once a champion looses focus like Tyson did, sombody s going to hand him his head sooner or later, and it dosnt necesarily take a great fighter to do it as Douglas proved. The most important atribute for a fighter wanting to match Louis's record, would be ability to retain focus after he held the title, and Tyson didnt have it.

Johnson: He has longevity to compare himself so certainly not out the question. Walcott may well beat him ofcourse (as maybe he deserved to against Louis) but he has a good chance of replicating what Louis did

Click to expand...

Again, Johnson was inconsistent in his training habits in his own era. In practice he probably fights less often than Louis, against weaker opposition, and strings his title reign out over a similar period. Even in this scenario, it is verry likley that his training habbits let him down.

Holyfield: IS there anyone as good as Bowe/Lewis/Moorer to derail him?
Click to expand...

Yes, there are fighters as good as Moorer in every era.

Foreman: I think Foreman probably gets outboxed down the line by someone but I wouldn't count on it. I think Conn is too small to stay away from him for 15rounds. He likely loses to Walcott past his prime but if he lands on Walcott its over

Click to expand...

Again, looking at Foremans career I have doubts about him sustaining the level of activity and allso this is an era with a lot of slick boxers.

Frazier/Marciano - Rocky had the benefit of not fighting significantly past his prime and I think he likely suffers if he does. He doesn't have the style to fight at the top for 10years and Frazier probably doesn't. Fraziers style could see him ko'd near his prime too although prime for prime they are favorites against everyone on the list

Click to expand...

The problem with Marciano and Frazier is that their styles do not suit longevity. In Fraziers case for example, the Cummings fight would fall within the period of Louis's title reign.

Dempsey - the slow lumbering guys he likely eats up although if he lunges in ala Firpo there is a chance of an upset. Walcott would beat a past prime Dempsey. Schmelling may beat him in his prime

Click to expand...

If Dempsey takes three years out to play around in Hollywood, then sombody is taking him out.

Liston - Liston is favorite over everyone on the list, past his prime though Walcott likely outboxes him but Liston obviously carries the punchers chance much like Louis
Click to expand...

Again, the problem with Liston is that he completely lost focus once the title was in his hands. Fighters like that find a way of bringing themselves down to the level of their opposition.
Click to expand...

Log in or Sign up

Why nobody could have matched Joe Louis's record

di tullio Guest

Swarmer Patrick Full Member

Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

Foreman Hook ☆☆☆ G$ora ☆☆☆ Full Member

Foreman Hook ☆☆☆ G$ora ☆☆☆ Full Member

Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Why nobody could have matched Joe Louis's record

di tullio Guest

Swarmer Patrick Full Member

Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

Foreman Hook ☆☆☆ G$ora ☆☆☆ Full Member

Foreman Hook ☆☆☆ G$ora ☆☆☆ Full Member

Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member

PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

Il Duce Boxing Addict Full Member

janitor VIP Member Full Member