Why nobody talks crap about Holmes resume

Again no offence to you but your talking with hindsight and that's the problem, yes Page did lose to some former Holmes opponent "after" Holmes decided not to the fight him and that's the key word here "after".

In 83 Page was as you know Holmes's mandatory and considered Holmes's most dangerous opponent, now i wasn't born during this era but from what i've read and heard from various posters. Is that Holmes vs Page was quite a tasty match up at the time.

My big problem with Holmes not fighting Page as i've said a few times, is that Holmes fought two very weak challengers with Marvis Frazier fight not even being sanctioned because of how poor it was. Just imagine Holmes was in this era now right ? and instead of fighting his mandatory who was considered the most dangerous opponent, he fights two uninspiring challengers then vacates the belt ? how much backlash do you think Holmes would of received on this forum from fans ?

Overall we all know Page didn't quite live up to the talent he had, due to his laziness and inconsistency. But there's no question he was the most deserving/dangerous opponent for Holmes in 83. And i think it's a bad look that Holmes fought two very weak challengers, then vacated his belt so he didn't have to face Page.

Now you know i like Holmes alot as a fighter, his fights vs Witherspoon, Weaver 1, Norton, Mercer, Shavers 2, Cooney, are some of my favourite Heavyweight fights ever. But as you know i never have a biased opinion for fighters i like i always call it as i see it.

 

You are absolutely right on so much of this.

That said, I was in college in 83 and most of my boxing friends thought Dokes and Witherspoon were better prospects than Page, who'd already lost to Berbick (a guy Holmes practically shut out) and hadn't looked particularly good against a post-Cooney victim (way past it) Jimmy Young.

 

Wish i could of been born in that era i hate modern boxing for the most part, thats why you see a youngster like me mostly on classic forum.

 

Holmes vacated the belt to take the Frazier fight, he said in his book, because he was offered the same money for the Frazier fight and he considered the Frazier fight to be very low risk in comparison (and given what happened in that fight, can't say he was wrong about it being low risk). He said that #1 concern was protecting his income potential, and that meant keeping his 0.

Given that his book spends a lot of time discussing the finances of boxing and making fights, as well as investments, I kind of buy it.

 

In hindsight you say? What about reality. Page was not that good and Witherspoon was. Don't be fooled by his record Witherspoon was a Philly gym fighter ( back that meant something ) and had old school Philly shell defense, which Witherspoon could counter of well and he had a very good right hand. That who Holmes fought, not some Joe who was 12-0. You learn fight in the gym. Timmy went to school. We are lucky, we can ask the man himself here. Anyway he looks better vs Holmes the Page ever did. Given Holmes and retirement after being robbed by Spinks and Witherspoon's bad relationship and contract with Don King, a re-match was not in the cards.

 

They're both very close, but "Fame" wise I do think Holmes, Spinks and Bruno are more well known then Witherspoon, Mercery or maybe even Cooney. Oddly in regard to Shavers and Norton, they are more known for the fights with Ali, then vs Holmes. Though Boxing geeks will recall the time Shavers drop Holmes lol.

 

Well the reality is Page was the most deserving challenger in 83 thats a fact, and Holmes chose not to fight him and fought two underserving challengers, and then vacated his belt thats also a fact.

What is there to dispute ? Thats undeniable fact, what has Page losing later on got to do with Holmes not fighting Page in 83 ? We all know Page was lazy as fighter and didn't fulfill his potential. But undeniably Page deserved a shot at Holmes in 83, and instead Holmes fought two undeserving challengers.

Page was actually good as evident by his impressive victory over Coetzee, aswell as other notable good performances over Tillis, Snipes. Its just he was very lazy and inconsistent but he had plenty of talent. Witherspoon vs Page was actually a very competitive fight that Page lost by MD, its just he came in grossly overweight and was lackluster. But still give Witherspoon a tough fight.

Holmes has stated himself during his final few years as champion, that he would fight anyone he felt like and would be taking easier route because he felt he deserved it.

Now some people might give the aging champion benefit of the doubt, but still he did avoid Greg Page for whatever reason but it did happen.

 

I see what you are saying but Holmes vs Norton is in the short list for top heavyweight fights ever.

 

Great posts all through the thread, DP. You've stuck to a very solid point unwaveringly courteously and convincingly. Your debate with @RulesMakeItInteresting was a masterclass in, well, class. Kudos to you both.

 

Good post. Technically he dodged Page but he made more money fighting a very easy challenger and Marvis Frazier. Like, the older I get the harder it is for me to get mad at a guy who took more money for an easier night of work.

 

Holmes was considered uneatable during his reign. One of the longest lasting heavyweight champions. Old man gets by Spinks, and he is 49-0.

 

Agreed and this has been debated over for decades now. While Greg Page went on to lose to many fighters and some of them lesser foes it doesn’t get Holmes off the hook for refusing a mandatory challenge at the time.

 

He gets a lot of criticism for never unifying his title and avoiding some young dangerous contenders ( Coetzee, Page, Thomas).

 

If I remember correctly, didn't Page lose consecutive bouts to Spoon and David Bey when he was in line to face Holmes? I just got back from Boxrec and it reaffirmed my belief.

Or did Holmes make Page wait for a shot too long?

Edit: Spoon and Page fought for the WBC belt Holmes vacated.

 

A bout with Coetzee was made but the money fell through. I think that's how Page got the shot at Coetzee in South Africa.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/16/sports/holmes-coetzee-fight-is-off.html