Why Robinson 1st At Middleweight?

I would say def initley between Hopkins and Ketchel , just my opinion , what do you think?? Any1 else cutting it for you??

 

For me it's Ketchel.

 

Oh yea, i meant that it would be between Hopkins and Ketchel for number 5, but they dont break the top 4 imo.

I would say -

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Monzon
4. Hagler
5. Hopkins
6. Ketchell

These are the elite achievers at 160 imo.

To fill my top ten maybe,-

7. Papke
8. Fulmer
9. Cerdan
10. Toney (just based on him bein' a class boxer really.

It aint set in stonr at all, just a rushed thing really! The only cert is who my top 6 are, but not in order for definite though.

 

That's what I meant as well. Also, Papke in a top 10 middleweight list? Not seen that before. And what about Walker or Dempsey?

 

just rushed! Just thought i'd put him in there because i respect him as a top MW, Walker was class no doubt, but i rate him very high at ww personally, you have a top ten??

 

It certainly is tough to do a top 10 for middleweight. I did one a while ago but there were some glaring omissions. Off the top of my head it would probably be...

Harry Greb
Marvin Hagler
Carlos Manzon
Sugar Ray Robinson
Stanley Ketchel
Tiger Flowers
Bernard Hopkins
Frank Klaus
Jake LaMotta
Jack Dempsey

Subject to change, especially Hopkins rating. It will probably move once he's officially retired. Langford, McCoy and Fitzsimmons are some that would be on the list but I rate them at lightheavy instead.

 

I think its safe to say that i embarrassed mysellf from 7 downwards on my rankings!!!

Here's with some more thought-

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Monzon
4. Hagler
5. Hopkins
6. Ketchel
7. Dick Tiger
8. Gene Fulmer
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Marcel Cerdan

 

Turpin had a tough style for Robinson, he was awkward and was difficult for a sniper like Ray to draw a bead on him without catching shots himself. However, it should be remembered that Robinson was fighting his 5th bout in a month and his second in 9 days -and was tired!

No one knows how Monzon or Hagler or Hopkins would cope with being the kind of champion who fought 10 times the first year after getting the title in his 30th year. Hell, he was about 44 years old during his last year in the ring and fought 14 times. Remember -Hagler was fading fast at 30 -which was how old he was when he met Hearns. Monzon defended 5 times in his first year as champ at the age of 28.

The level of activity for guys like Greb and Robinson far surpass the more modern guys -they would have found 3 fights a year to be a luxury and I have my doubts that Robinson would ever have been beaten before the age of 36 had weight limits been in place and had he not fought at such a frantic pace. Greb and SRR were comparative supermen.

However, Sanchez is right in that we have to be consider the records and the achievements in the division as they are. There are mitigating factors but we have to be careful applying them because the subjectivity of the observer will skew us all over the place.

I place Robinson in the top 5 easily at MW and usually in the top 3, but never higher than 3. Head-to-head however, is another story.

 

Super points.

 

However if you want exlude the 'mitigating circumstances', shouldnt we also note most of Harry Grebs wins were above the 160lb limit?

I do wonder though if too much gloss is taken off Turpins win, he fought an excellent fight and made SRR fight his fight

I think SRR has a better case for no1 than Hagler, and as good as Monzon/Greb

 

But that inconsistancy is only after his comeback after the age of 36 way past his prime

My main thing against SRR is not inconsistancy its the fact he didnt face the top blk fighters of his era like Charles Burley, who was head and shoulders above his other opp, its nearly as bad as Dempsey-Wills

 

I would counter that a sound measure of how great a fighter is can be found in their performance against larger man. Greb was the serious man at MW and LHW -no one would dispute except for the rigid. Greb beat Loughren, McTigue, and Tunney at LHW. He beat HW contenders like Miske, Brennan, and Gunboat Smith. At MW, the win over Walker is special by any stretch. Head-to-head, Greb is murderous and I wouldn't be surprised if both Hagler and Monzon would be overwhelmed.

As for Turpin, I don't doubt that Robinson would have trouble with him even if he wasn't worn out on that European tour. But let's be honest here -Turpin wasn't near Robinson's class. He had a good style to cope with Robinson...