Why so many rate Tunney ahead of tyson at heavy?

Overall I can see how people rate Tunney>Tyson. Not just heavyweight though.

 

Spinks was 30+ years old and, while not on a layoff, was a tremendously inactive champion and fighter. It cuts both ways.

Dempsey is a legitimate heavyweight ATG and HOFer for that accomplishment. Michael Spinks is one of the weakest heavyweight champions in history, his accomplishments coming at 175.

No doubt that Spinks is Tyson's signature win(I'd entertain Berbick, as well), but there is also no question that Jack Dempsey, in virtually any form, is a greater win. And if the first one can be discounted for the excuse of Jack's layoff, the second can't. It is well known Dempsey trained very, very hard for his second go with Tunney.

 

Holmes > Dempsey

 

I disagree.

Every criticism of the Dempsey I win applies for Tyson's against Holmes.

 

Spinks is the one that avoided Tyson until he had no choice but to retire or fight.

Spinks was undefeated and had never been knocked out so its not like he was Brain-Damaged. He was off for 1 year; not 3 years like Dempsey.
Spinks was around 31/32 years of age and Dempsey around 30/31. Fact check later.

Also remember that like Tyson, Dempsey wasn't relying solely on "boxing skills" as much as he was with that ferocious Tiger aggressiveness that takes so much out of you and tends to burn you out before 30.
Where someone like Spinks, a pure boxer, like Holmes, can coast longer with relying on "Boxing Skills."



Who are Jack Dempsey's signature wins?

Name me the great "Boxers" that Dempsey fought first. And make sure they are true sized HWs and not fighters that could have fought at LH in SPinks era.

 

Tony Tubbs is better H2H than anyone on Dempsey's resume.

 

Anybody who rates Tyson in the top 10 ATG at heavyweight simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

You can't change a fighters heart. Tyson was and always will be a head case. Stand up to him and he backs down and is full of self doubt. Does not matter which Tyson...amateur or pro. When pushed it would always be the same Mike. This is one of the main reasons why he is not rated higher all time. He is a quitter not just once but multiple times. Not a characteristic of an all time great. Can't rate someone like that next to real warriors such as Marciano, Dempsey, Louis or Ali. These men you had to kill to stop them. Not so Tyson.

 

Liston fought who he fought... I don't have a problem with his opponent selection. The same attitude should apply to the Klitschko's though... but it doesn't.

The bottom line is that Liston never beat a good HW over 200Lbs (who was actually solid at 200Lbs)... unless you consider Cleveland Williams x2 and Chuck Wepner good Heavyweights. He lost to Ali x2 (no shame), a 180 Lb Marty Marshall (Marshall broke his jaw), and a 199 Lb Leotis Martin (KO9).

Seriously, Ernie Cab, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Willi Besmanoff, Howard King, and Henry Clark... along with Williams, and Wepner are the only fighters Liston beat who weighed over 200 Lbs that anybody every heard of. A washed up Hasim Rahman would beat the **** out of all of these guys.

Now, Let's look at all of the decent fighters Vitali has beat over the 200 Lb. limit-

 

So he fought the best hw's he could, what more can ya ask?

Vitali fights second rate opposition whilst Wlad fights top 5 guys.

 

Head Case, Yes, but it's bull**** about the Standing up to him and he will fold.

And Yes, it does matter which Tyson, Amateur or Pro, because your Amateur Career is about learning. Tyson matured from the Amateurs to the Pros quite rapidly. If he didn't, he would never have been HW Champ at 20.

Tyson told a story about how he, a young teen, went head to head with a matured adult as an amateur. I can't remember the details off the top of my head but he battled it out to the end with this Guy and it was one of those break through moments. A moment in which he was proud of himself as well as D'Amato for not giving up despite being outmatched.

Training is where you learn. It is where you gain your Confidence which can be directly related to how much "heart" you have.
Mentally, Physically, and Technically...TRAINING..is Key for Confidence. Having a "Game-Plan" is key for Confidence. Having the Right Trainer/Team is Key for Confidence.


I posted an article up about Ribalta who said he wasn't scared of Tyson. Yet he lost by TKO.

Berbick came right at Tyson, yet he got knocked out as well.

Tony Tucker, 6'5 220+ HW, who had more experience than Tyson, unleashed an uppercut from hell that momentarily shook Tyson yet it was Tyson who shook it off and went on to win a UD. Why didn't Tyson fold going up against a larger fighter?
Why didn't Tyson fold when someone stood up to him and threw a hard punch at him landing with crushing force?


Bruno shook him momentarily as well and Tyson continued to fight on against the larger fighter. And it was Bruno who gave Tyson credit for being a Champion that can continue to fight back when hurt. He saw it first-hand.

When he fought Douglas, he got his ass kicked and never gave up. He even had his moment with the uppercut despite the ass kicking he was receiving. He was stunned badly, pushed back against the ropes, and it was Tyson who unleashed uppercut after uppercut trying to land on Douglas. Note, that was the same punch that landed and knocked down Douglas so Tyson still had it in him to think he could win.
Even when knocked down, he got up on shaky legs. He never gave up.
O', and Douglas says he "Never saw quit in Tyson." I posted up that article.

Can you imagine not being in the best shape both Mentally and Physically and having to go up against a bigger man like Douglas?
It's crazy. But Tyson gutted it out until the very end instead of just quitting on his stool when he started to get his ass kicked for the first few rounds and knowing you should have taken training more seriously.



Ruddock: Ruddock fought Tyson after the "invincibility" of "Iron Mike Tyson" was shattered. Ruddock wasn't scared of Tyson. He actually went up to Tyson, grabbed him by his arm, and said I'm next in order to secure that fight after missed opportunities. It was Ruddock, a larger Man that Tyson, that stood his ground an unleashed bombs on Tyson...yet Tyson didn't back down and won by KO in the first meeting. Rematch happened, against, another brutal fight and Tyson came out the victor.




Post-Prison: Forget it. A Shadow of himself.





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Dempsey, a real warrior? A common mining town pimp who beat his bitches into service, and who with the help of his Machiavellian manager evaded service in the War to End All Wars... while guys like Tunney and Greb served? The guy who avoided his two best challengers over his entire "reign" as champ, if you call sitting on your ass in between banging starlets a title reign. Wills was a huge man for his time with a great right hand, durability and a record over the best, most avoided fighters of the era. Greb had beaten Darcy, Gibbons, Brennan and Tunney multiple times, all hand-picked challengers this "real warrior" chose rather than repeat the thrashing he received from Greb in sparring sessions.

Is this the "real warrior" of whom you speak?

 

Greb beat Darcy?