why so much love for lyle.....

Terrell was very lucky to get the decision against Williams in their second fight. In his next fight, Terrell soundly beat Zora Folley. Williams getting a bullet put in his stomach prevented a scheduled third fight with Terrell from taking place.

The difference between the Williams of the second Terrell fight and the Williams of the Ali or Tod Herring fights is quite remarkable. His reflexes and legs were completely shot by that point.

 

The difference between wayne bethea and williams is not much.

williams beat more fighters called graveyard walters and kirk barow as the house fighter, bethea went on the road as the opponent. both lost to the same kind of guys.

williams and bethea both beat terrell and they both got knocked out by sonny Liston. williams beat bethea on points ...in texas.

 

Williams sure relied on getting those controversial decisions as the house fighter, didn't he?

The difference between Williams and Bethea is the difference between a fringe contender and an actual top contender who was considered a threat to the title.

 

It takes more than looking good losing to be considered a threat to the title. Williams did not have the kind of shavers v ellis win on his resume.

I have read a lot about him over the years, and whilst his power is respected and that cleveland was large for the time the big cat just won the kind of fights you would expect of an ordinary, regular contender. Everybody who was rated beat the same guys.

cleveland williams is like gerrie coetzee without the dokes and leon spinks wins. or even lyle without the buster mathis and shavers wins.

 

He was considered a threat for the title. I wouldn't be surprised if he had won a version of the title, if not for getting shot, since I don't feel Terrell ever truly beat him.

 

I don't think Lyle is great but he nearly beat Foreman and he beat Shavers by going toe-toe with him and took some of the best shots ever in those 2 fights, hats off to him

 

williams was considered dangerous but a threat to the title? when? was he realy considered a threat to the title? The fight with machen, the hometown draw, canceled him out. I have had my head bitten off by mcgrain in the past because he insists machen was suffering a nervous breakdown around that time.

What was the big WIN that put williams on the map?

maybe (if i take your word for it) williams beat young ernie "losing to bethea" terrell both times. So what? At least terrell registered wins over chuvalo, folley, bob foster and doug jones.

 

He was considered a threat even in 1966 when he was completely shot (in a literal sense). The general feeling was that Ali had avoided guys like Cleveland Williams on his way to the top. Certainly he was a threat to Patterson. He was a top 3 ranked heavyweight contender at one point and a recognized heavy hitter, so it's fair to say he was a threat.

So what if Williams beat a guy who registered wins over a high level of competition? Where is the logic in that?

Williams wanted the big fights, but he had poor management during his early career and the moment things started looking up for him, he got shot.

Patterson and Terrell were among the opponents he was scheduled to face in 1964-1965.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...52337&dq=zora+folley+cleveland+williams&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...2,4662226&dq=terrell+cleveland+williams&hl=en

 

thanks for posting, I dont see how you can tell me cleveland williams is not gerrie coetzee without the key wins?

intresting stuff about fights that never happened though... williams was going to fight patterson when floyd was not a champion? williams was going to fight terrell in a rubber match for the WBA strap until he got shot?

this does not tell me what win put williams on the map and made him a big time threat to the title in the first place.

Ali beat moore, lavorante, jones and cooper who were all rated so how did he bypass cleveland williams?

between the Liston and ali fights williams beat 18 unrated fighters who could not win more than 2 of their last 4 fights, of those (6-4) mel turnbow knocked him down. Williams also beat george moore and ernie terrel who had better records but Moore was only 11 months into a comeback after a two year break from a 14 month career.

So what big win put williams in the top ten in 1961? his only name win up till then was washed up mitteff who was ripe off beatings in the last 10 months from cooper, chuvalo and machen that took alex OUT of the top ten in time for his fight with williams.

 

I would not count on Weaver and Page flattening or Snipes and Tate outpointing Williams.

Williams beating Terrell who held the WBA title.

Outside of Doug Jones, those fighters were outside of the top 5 at best. Ali did not fight Folley, Machen or Williams on his way up which led to some criticism. Ali even admitted in 1966 that not taking on Williams earlier on was a source of embarrassment for him.

Wayne Bethea, Alex Miteff, Alonzo Johnson and Billy Daniels I believe were rated at some point. Sonny Banks was a pretty tough guy who had dropped Ali.

Miteff nearly knocked out Cooper and went to a split decision with Chuvalo, Williams destroyed Miteff with ease. He had beaten up and comers like Curley Lee and George Moore and had a pair of exciting fights with Sonny Liston. With a record of over 50 wins of which a high percentage were by decisive knockouts, he surely belonged in the top 10.

 

why not? williams was flattend by satterfeild and outpointed by sylvester jones, he was outpointed by ernie terrell. coetzee decked snipes.

so the big time win that puts cleveland on the map is beating a yet to be rated terrell?

If the big cats best win on paper was his 1962 win over an unrated Ernie Terrell it means he had one other competitive fight before facing Ali- a rematch with Terrell that he lost.

beating 4 rated fighters is more than enough to get a shot at the title and four more curent rated contenders than williams ever beat.

key words "some point", also losing 3 of their last 6 fights by the time they travelled to texas to meet williams.

The exciting fights with liston were fights cleveland was knocked out in. miteff nearly knocked out cooper but cooper nearly knocked out ali - however miteff and cooper both lost those fights.
A record of 50 wins against unrated fighters does not mean that much. lamar clark also had a lot of wins.

 

When Williams was 19 years old. I can't see anything better than a draw for Terrell in that fight. How did you score the fight? Have you even seen it or any other Williams fights outside of his losses to Liston and Ali?

There was no single win in particular that put him on the map. More so the quantity of his work.

I don't think Cooper or Lavorante were rated at the time Ali fought them. Moore was number 9 or 10 and nearing 50 years of age. The Jones fight, a close and competitive decision, was his best win.

Many contenders at the time, with Chuvalo being the most vocal of them, thought he was getting a title shot more based on his ability to promote the fight than his wins over top rated opponents.

Billy Daniels was coming off wins over Mike DeJohn and Tony Alongi. Williams fought him in Florida.

Did Williams receive hometown decisions in Texas?

LaMar Clark fought absolute bums off the street. Williams fought men who could handle themselves in the ring, and KO'd them in devastating fashion.

After nearly KO'ing Ali, Cooper's stock was better than ever.

 

my point exactly.

oh yes they were.

clay was an upstart but he was beating rated fighters. He was landing fights and winning them.

its not a big time win. billy was a barber.

what good fighter did williams KO in devestating fashion???

that made cooper but his stock was high since the folley fight he had been as high as #1 until folley beat him back than was around #4 for a long time at least until 1963, cooper featured in the ratings until 1970. cleveland never beat anyone like that but he did lose to chuvalo.

 

Lavorante was not rated in 1962 or 1963. Cooper was not rated in 1963. He made the number 10 spot in 1962.

Indeed, with his clever management. Which Williams did not have.

It's a win over a ranked contender.

Terrell got knocked out.

His stock was so high he was not included in the top 10:

Sonny Liston, Champion

1. Cassius Clay
2. Doug Jones
3. Ernie Terrell
4. Cleveland Williams
5. Zora Folley
6. Eddie Machen
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Karl Mildenberger
9. George Chuvalo
10. Brian London

Williams lost to Chuvalo when he was near 40 years old.

 

They did not make the annual ratings after clay beat them but would have both been registered at the time they met clay. cooper was a fixture in the ratings since 1958. terrell was not rated when williams beat him, nor was bethea.

billy daniels was out of the ratings,williams got to him only after he had already been exposed by clay who stopped him. williams only outpointed daniels then everyone beat daniels that year including karl mildenburger who knocked him out. the alongi win was good though, he must have been decent.

after wayne bethea beat him, before he was rated.

again, these are annual ratings. since 1958 cooper had been as high as #1 some months until folley beat him back in 1961. since then cooper was 4-0 including wins over americans tony hughs and bethea -the fighter that had recently launched williams into the ratings. cooper was at least #7 the actual month he fought ali, I shall check my magazines.

folley was realy the gatekeeper to the top 4 places in the ratings. I dont understand how when folley lost to jones and terrell that cleveland williams rose above zora out of drawing with machen? machen had only been outpointed only by liston, folley and harold johnson at that point but beat jones who was ahead of him?

There is something wrong with the ratings when jones and williams are ahead of machen and folley. There is also no ingo in these listings-he beat London that year who is #10.. annual ratings dont tell the whole story.