why such dislike for ali?

Don't have time to read the rest of this thread, but I have long felt Ali to be given too much credit for his performance in the 70's. I think Frazier was going downhill the whole decade and that Foreman was a rank amateur whose great strength and intimidation factor carried him far. Ali was able to carry on due his personality, the kindness given to him by ref's and judges, a flashy jab and the capacity to absorb an inhuman amount of punishment.

All that said, I still rank him 2nd at HW.

 

I rate him #2, after Joe Louis.

 

Some of the dislike towards Muhammad Ali was simply, that he was unjustly
awarded some decisions in fights, that he didn't win.

Some of the fight fans, just didn't trust the judges, the networks and promoters.
With Ali winning, it meant more money in ad revenues.

But, without a young Cassius Clay in 1964, boxing would have headed down a
'bad road' for a few years.
Sonny Liston,,,,,,,,,,too much baggage and mob-oriented
Floyd Patterson,,,,,,much flawed
Jerry Quarry,,,,,,,,,,good, but limited
INGO,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,damaged goods
European Group,,,,,very weak and all suspect
Joe Frazier,,,,,,,,,,,4-years away
Cleveland Williams,,gun-shot wound
Eddie Machen,,,,,,,coming back from health issues
Ernie Terrell,,,,,,,,,tall, but weak and needed more polish

 

:good

Having him any lower than 2 is just as wrong as those who say he's the clear-cut #1 without any budge room to allow so much as an argument for Joe.

 

With a combination of talent and historical content,

1) Joe Louis
2) Muhammad Ali
3) Jack Dempsey
4) Rocky Marciano

 

At least until 1976 he didn't need to rely on judges' benevolence, and by then his legacy was already secured. In the six previous years he had stopped Frazier, Quarry x 2, Bonavena, Lyle, Ellis and been the only one to EVER knock out Foreman. All this while past his prime.

I think he often gets too little credit for this, actually. Not too much.

 

Its mostly for being too mainstream. He was just too high profile. Does anyone in sport deserve to be that big when they are still just a kid? was he THAT qualified to talk as he did? Everyone has an opinion on ali but I dont think unless he broke the law or let himself and the sport down in the ring his personality should even come into it.

As far as boxing goes I love him. the guy was the greatest. Forget politics he was a great and unique fighter. He did not let the sport down.

I dislike that today it has become a fact that regarding greatness "transcending the sport" and "having charisma" is often too serious a factor thanks to ali....

 

I'm trying to decide if that's your best avatar yet. You have had some great ones (the redhead from Mad Men will linger long in memory), but tigers do rock.

 

It was a little easier for him to 'chirp' back then,
with all the smart boys behind him at LSG (mostly millionaires),
he was bank-rolled and protected.

Not one other fighter, had that kind of clout.
Sonny Liston had it for awhile, until he started to get into too much trouble, and
then his backers were picked off one-by-one by the U.S. Justice Department.

Mr. Clay was good for boxing, but did he get too big...??

 

While I resist and resent implications like the one misread earlier in Bokaj's post (that any higher rating of Louis is mere knee-jerk backlash against the mainstream popularity of Ali, in some attempt at boxing hipster elitism), it is true that many are put off by the larger-than-life iconoclasm that has become Ali's loft in the annals of history.

Personally, I am pretty firmly resistant to pretty much all icons of any endeavor and prefer to subject them to intense and vigorous scrutiny - more so than their peers - to ensure that their ratings are talent-appropriate (ie people rating Hendrix as the best guitarist ever just because that's what they heard...or Sinatra as the greatest singer ever just because that's what they heard...or Marilyn Monroe as the greatest actress of her day - HAH! - just because that's what they heard). Usually the "most famous" person in a given walk of life is touted by the unwashed ignorant as also being "the best" and it's very hard to dispel this notion unless you can force the unwilling offender to educate themselves and develop an informed opinion.

I'm not against Classic forum posters of unimpeachable credibility (who I know have pored over countless hours of footage and done plenty of research, and in some cases even lived through the times in question) rating Ali #1 after much careful analysis. I'm a Louis man, but receptive to arguments for Ali (and in turn appreciate Ali guys who are graciously receptive to the arguments for Louis).

What churns my stomach is hearing non-fans with an opinion but not a lick of knowledge (and they are legion) declare that Ali was the "greatest boxer of all time" - let alone greatest heavyweight - only to reveal upon cross-examination that they don't even know who Joe Louis or Ray Robinson are.

That's what iconoclasm does. That's what happens when a persona becomes bigger than their area of merit.

That's how we get people saying Marilyn was a great actress, and the like.

 

:good

True. Despite beeing no power puncher he was able to stop durable guys consistently. Look at his KO percentage before retirement, it was more like one of a puncher than a boxer. I can´t think of another hw with a similar quality.

 

yet theres uproar with certain people if theres so much of a hint of anyone saying anything 'derogatory' bout Dempsey?
Cant have it both ways BB

 

Your point???

 

Partly because he was a rude big-mouth - remember, he was hated at the time for exactly that reason. And he has some unpleasant traits, for example his treatment of Frazier, his treatment of his wives, his advocacy of extremist Muslim nationalists and black segregationists, and so on. The people that love him tend to rate the positive qualities better than these bad qualities.

I don't think anyone disputes how good he was, he's usually 1 or 2 in the best heavyweights list, and top 10 P4P.

Personally I think he's about 50/50 as a person, part good part bad. But I rate him very highly as a boxer. Still, he wasn't as good a champion as Joe Louis, no way near as dominant.