why such dislike for ali?

Where to start ? The thread we are on has nothing to do with 'why we dislke
Ali as a FIGHTER ",But why he is disliked as a person. If you J,think that calling vile names to his opponents,as he did like no OTHER fighter before him,taking boxing to the level of modern pro "wrestling",is ****** dorey,we
part company. If you think taunting his pained opponents, doing injustice to
dignity. then we part company.If you think joining a HATE group like the Black Muslims,who called me ,and millions of others WHITE DEVILS,then we
part company. When you say refusing to serve in the military,while millions of others HAD to ,and DID,as I and several of friends who DIED,served their
country, is a noble gesture on Ali's part, then you and I, are living in two different worlds. In a Democracy, we have to obey the laws, like it or not.
Or ANARCHY takes over. If you don't like the law, throw the rascals out at
the ballot box. And if you don't vote, take your penalty like a man..
So JM, we are living in two different worlds. If you want an idol,take my idol
Joe Louis. He never taunted or flaunted his opponents, never ever called them
VILE NAMES. Served his country with honor and dignity, that your IDOL
was never capable of. That was a MAN to defend. Not Ali. Cheers ...

 

IDOL??? Hes not my idol BB. I think hes one of the greatest fighters ever lived,IMO the best heavyweight ever laced them up, but i wouldnt go as far as to say i idolise him. If i think hes gettin short-changed then i will say, as i have done.

We obviously have contrasting opinions on him and i dont want to fall out with you over it, so we'll agree to disagree.

 

He wasn't very nice to Joe Louis, a respected elder.

But, on the other hand, he did stay away from Jack Dempsey,
even in 1965 Jack intimidated the young lad.

 

He was and he wasn't.

The Ali-Louis relationship was a lesson in contradictions, actually.

He did give him money in the later "dark years"...but by that point Joe had become a very pathetic figure with no qualms about asking for handouts, and just about anyone with an appreciation for who he'd been - or hell, anyone with a beating heart, was a sucker for it and gave him money. Granted, Ali probably gave more than most...but also proportionately had more to give.

He definitely also exploited Joe's situation as a cautionary tale, saying things like "Black people* don't celebrate this part of Joe Louis"...and intimating that he was an Uncle Tom (actually, that's verbatim) and a puppet or tool for the white man (not quite directly saying that he'd reaped what he sowed, but...)

*(since he apparently speaks for all? :huh)

Then, on a non-personal level Ali was also extremely contradictory when comparing himself to Louis as a boxer.

He said both:

"I am the astronaut of boxing. Joe Louis and Dempsey were just jet pilots. I'm in a world of my own."

and

"I just give lip service to being the greatest. He was the greatest"

It is an odd jigsaw, packaged in a Chinese box and tied up with an enigma-patterned bow.

 

Did you expect him to be the complaint and complacent "Black Man"?

This was said at a time when minorities were not welcome in certain establishments. This was a time where there was still segregation in schools and public places. This was a time where interracial marriages were illegal in most states and mob justice in the form of the angry white man would enforce the law. This was a time where the KKK was in strong numbers and their presence was more conspicuous.

This was a time where racism in the country was both widespread and legal. Ali was a type A personality. Though he was young and impressionable, he also spoke his mind. So if you're somehow inferring that this statement is a reflection of poor character on Ali's behalf then maybe the problem isn't with Ali, its with you.

 

Fe (Iron symbol) Champ,

This statement was made in July 1965, immediately after the Sonny Liston II
fight in Maine.
The boxing commissions and Senate Investigating Division were pissed about the outcome, and unsrupulous events surrounding that fight.

They were not investigating the boxers, but the back-room dealings, closed circuit Television contracts and pay-offs (bribes) to the Boxing Associations.

Muhammad Ali, as usual, twisted everything into its about 'me', when in truth it was about the 'mechanisms of boxing'.

The 'white hope' scenario didn't bring any big dollars into the theatre buys, most boxing fans (90%) just wanted to see a good bout.

If a 'white hope' was required, the inside gentleman of Las Vegas would have created
one.

 

I think Ali was talking about boxing, nothing else.
He also said boxing needs 'white hopes', because in professional boxing the bottom line is money. He would have loved for a white fighter like Marciano to have come around at that time. Big big paydays.

Yet Ali seemed to be in agreement with that.

"A black man should be killed if he's messing with a white woman." When the interviewer asked about black women crossing the colour barrier, Ali responded: "Then she dies. Kill her, too."

 

Ali was mistaken about the federal commission idea.
But he certainly liked the idea of a big box-office attraction at that time, and he assumed a white man was the only 'hope'.

This news article is interesting :

[url]http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=d-BYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k_cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7294,4110262&dq=cassius+clay+white+hopes&hl=en[/url]

 

I think you're missing the point. Ali stood up to his government, while standing up for his country. It was honorable, it was brave and it was a reflection of a view point that would later be expressed close to a decade later.

He was against the war at a time when Racism was legal in the United States.
History has vindicated his position.

By the way Raquel Welch, Joey Heatherton, Jane Fonda and Jayne Kennedy didn't have to use separate restrooms in public places and were never refused service a day in their life.

 

As females, I bet they faced a lot of institutional and legalized discrimination in the 1960s.

Hey, if Racquel Welch is in 'nam, I'm signing up in a flash. Even if 'I don't like white women' !

 

Hey UN,

Don't forget the famous 'crotch shot' of Ann-Margaret on stage in Da Nang.
And even Yvonne Craig (Bat Girl) was there on stage, with her Bat Cycle.

'Please Mr. Recruitment Officer, where do I sign up'

Is it just possible, that if you joined the Nation of Islam, they promised you a way out
the Selective Service, or least told you that.

 

interesting thread. some of these posts are exhausting to read, though, especially reznick's. sure, the extreme hatred of ali is unjustified, but so is the extreme reverence. he did good, he did bad. a bit of balance never goes amiss when analysing any historical figure... and make no mistake, ali towers over the twentieth century like few others.

 

well we all know the story of clay winning the 1960 gold medal and being refused to eat at a place cuz he was black. i think him fighting for blacks started then in his mind - not just cuz of black muslims which came later. watch this :-
[yt]mfP2f4kleJs[/yt]

 

That may very well be the case, but when presented in little snippets like that the implication seems to be otherwise.

This was a reflection of the times. Ali was rebellious to the establishment and his answer to discrimination, was the exact same thing. I don't believe that Ali maintains this view and I also don't believe that if he were born in the 70s or 80s that he'd feel the same way at the same age. I think that after winning a gold medal in Rome and coming back home and being refused service because he was black steered him towards the NOI. Remember he later converted to Sunni Muslim when he realized that the NOI was full of ****.

 

Yeah, sure, BUT if any white champion, or even Larry Holmes, had made that same statement they could live to 1000 years old and never live it down, and no one would ever forgive or attempt to understand.

'A black man should be killed if he's messing with a white woman' ..... Imagine if Dempsey, Tunney, or even Holmes or Liston, had EVER said such a thing. That's what they'd always been known, and hated for.
There's not really much room for ambiguity in that statement. It's vile, through and through. Pure KKK stuff.