Why the double standards against Patterson?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bokaj, Aug 19, 2018.


  1. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,128
    13,067
    Jan 4, 2008
    Floyd gets accused of a padded and protected reign, but I don't it see as worse than several others.

    Here's the timeline (all rankings by N.B.A if not otherwise stated):

    1956: Wins the title against Moore.

    1957: Defends against nr 1 contender Jackson plus an easy payday against unranked Rademacher three weeks later.

    1958: Defends against nr 3 contender Harris.

    1959: Defends against nr 4 contender London and less than two months later against nr 1 contender Ingo.

    1960: Regains title

    1961: Honours rematch clause against Ingo (who was ranked nr 2 by The Ring, probably the same by N.B.A) and then defends against fringe contender McNeely.

    1962: Defends against nr 1 contender Liston.

    So while he defended against his two best contenders (Ingo and Liston) and never did worse than defend against a top 3 contender, there's a valid criticism that he failed to defend against his top contender for two years of his total of five years as a champion.

    Fair enough. But does that really mark him out, though?


    We all know about Johnson and Dempsey so I won't really go into that, but let's look at more modern champions.

    Charles. Did he really defend against the top contender every year?

    Frazier. Didn't defend against a single ranked contender in 1972. I've read that Foreman was his mandatory for 1973, but that doesn't seem right since Ali's quality of wins during the two previous years were light years ahead of Foreman's.

    Ali second reign: Defended against Evangelista and Spinks when Foreman, Young and Norton were all much more deserving.

    Holmes. Bey was the only top 5 ranked contender he defended against for three years, 1983-1985.

    Bowe. Threw his belt in the trash rather than defend against his mandatory.

    Foreman (second reign). Need I say anything?

    Lewis. Some question marks about not defending against Byrd and Ruiz. They certainly weren't outstanding and Ruiz was mauled by Tua who Lewis defended against, but the same can be said of Machen and Ingo.

    Wlad. Yes, the other outstanding fighter in the division was his brother, but fact remains that he never defended against what would have been his best opponent by far.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  2. crixus85

    crixus85 Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,679
    1,465
    Oct 18, 2014
    Couldn't agree more, the criticism on here is relentless by some posters, same comments all the time.
    Here are the ratings of Harris, London, McNeely, Ingo(3) from magazines at the time ;

    Harris ; The Ring, 5, Boxing Illustrated, 1, N.B.A, 3

    London ; Ring, 8, Boxing Illustrated, 8, N.B.A, 4

    McNeely ; Ring, 9, B/Illus', 13, N.B.A, 10

    Ingo 3rd fight, Ring, No 2

    Archie Moore was number one contender as was Jackson.
     
  3. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    15,795
    11,410
    Aug 22, 2004
    Good thoughts. He gets more credit here for his post-title resume, which to be frank is probably deserved but that shouldn't suggest that his reign was an embarrassment.
     
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta and Bokaj like this.
  4. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,099
    Oct 28, 2017
    I think it was a weak era, but that's not his fault.
     
    ETM and Bokaj like this.
  5. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,363
    12,689
    Mar 2, 2006
    I'll play devil's advocate here - and it's a stretch because I really like Floyd. But I think a lot of his bad press came, of course, from the press and perceptions of the era. Not to mention what was expected of a champ back then. Today we are not as critical of a fighter who fights once a year, because we have 3 other 'champs' picking up the slack so bad perceptions go a little bit under the radar today. But back then, inactivity was heavily scolded.

    Le4t's look at his reign from '56 - '62.

    Hurricane Jackson - although Floyd apparently completely dominated him in their eliminator, one official scored it for Jackson. Because of this Hurricane's rating probably wasn't hurt much and then he won twice - one of them a disputed decision over top contender Bob Baker - which kept him at the forefront. A good defense.

    Pete Rademacher - he defends against Pete 3 weeks after Jackson, which is good for activity but I believe lambasted by the press. It also probably didn't help Floyd in the Press by getting dropped by Pete. Poor defense and bad Press.

    Roy Harris - Harris deserved his ranking after wins over Bob Baker and Willie Pastrano, but this defense took place one year after the Rademacher debacle. Floyd needed a really high profile win after such inactivity, and although Tom was decent, it wasn't enough.

    Brian London - despite holding a rating, London lost his British and Commonwealth titles to Henry Cooper in his last fight. Moreover, it didn't help Floyd or Brian that Ingo Johannsen was going around saying, "My sister could knock out Brian London." Poor defense.

    Ingo - a good defense but these two monopolized the heavyweight title from '59 - '61 with one fight a year with good contenders rotting on the vine with this series freezing the title.

    Tom McNeely - 9 months after the Floyd-Ingo series, Floyd puts his title on the line against Tom McNeely of all fighters. A guy whose best wins were over George Logan and a well-chewed Willi Besmanoff. A very poor defense with good fighters overlooked during this spell and Floyd didn't help matters by getting dropped again.

    Sonny Liston - finally, the top dog.

    Again, I'm trying to recreate perception of the Press at the time. I hate to be the bad guy here because, again, I've always liked Floyd, but this really was poor when Nino Valdez, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston (since 1958) were top ten contenders and fighting each other. I think Floyd showed he would have got in the ring with anyone, but Cus D'Amato was calling the shots and he finally had to buck Cus by signing for Liston in '62. Anyways, that's my take.
     
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

    37,077
    3,733
    Sep 14, 2005
    Why???


    Because top ranked men like Eddie Machen and Zora Folley were hovering around number 1 or number 2 for three straight years while Patterson made soft defenses against London Radamcher mcneely and chose n3 Harris over the number 1 rated Machen who had a great 1957 beating Jackson in an eliminator. Machen and Folley were very highly regarded and yet never got title shots.

    Patterson had a vulnerable chin and confident issues, which was clocked by the only two punchers he faced during his title reign Johansson and Liston. Obviously a young Machen was screwed of a title shot. It would have been interesting had he faced other good punchers in the division so we could see how good his chin actually was. Valdes n2 instead of London in 58. Valdes managed bobby Gleason called Floyd “afraid to fight big hitters” in the newspapers and issued challenges daily. Cleveland Williams was rated number 5 in 1961 and promoters tried to set up a williams Patterson bout in place of mcneeley...would have been a very difficult stylistic matchup for Floyd but would have told us a lot about floyds durability or shortcomings. Floyd obviously had the ability to beat all of them...folley was another one who could have gotten a title shot sometime 1957-1961 who never was out of the top 5.


    Liston ended up doing the dirty work for Floyd...took out all the dangerous men Valdes dejohn williams Machen and Folley
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta likes this.
  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

    37,077
    3,733
    Sep 14, 2005
    Agreed that it was ridiculous for Patterson and Johansson to monopolize and freeze the division 1959-1961....with really good contenders or dangerous punchers like Liston Machen Folley williams Out there

    Patterson and Johansson were not good enough to freeze out the other contenders from a title shot
     
  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,128
    13,067
    Jan 4, 2008

    Yeah, maybe the media never forgave him for the Rademacher fight and that impression stuck.

    But defending once every year against the top contender was a standard set by Marciano and Louis. Don't think Charles quite kept to that standard even though he had a short reign. And if we compare to, say, Moore's LHW reign during the time Floyd was HW champ, I think Floyd's reign comes off pretty well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    choklab likes this.
  9. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,128
    13,067
    Jan 4, 2008
    Yes, as I said, Floyd should have defended against one of them in 1958 (never heard Machen-Jackson called an eliminator, though). Folley was after all top contender, even though it's hard to see why, and Machen came off that win over Jackson and should have been top contender. They were therefore slightly more deserving than Harris. Also Liston deserved to get his shot in 1961 instead of 1962. Have never disputed this.

    What I'm saying is that it is nothing out of the ordinary. Floyd's 1958 and 1961 is still much better than, say, Frazier's 1972 or Holmes's 1983 and 1985. Actually there are quite a few championship years that are as lacking or more, but those champions are never called "protected". That was my point.
     
    ideafix12, choklab and SuzieQ49 like this.
  10. scartissue

    scartissue Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,363
    12,689
    Mar 2, 2006
    Except for the fact that it caught up with Moore who was stripped of his title for inactivity. I wonder what the rules were back then for a champion and his defenses? The championship should always remain fluid, thus preventing champs from sitting on their title and by giving good honest contenders their chance. I don't know the reasons fighters today (like Gary Russell) remain inactive. They're just losing high-paying opportunities while wasting their prime years. At least with Moore it wasn't inactivity, just inactivity of his title. He was constantly playing with the heavyweight division which means he was making quite a good living.
     
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,128
    13,067
    Jan 4, 2008
    For example, why was Frazier less "protected" when he dropped out of the WBA tournament?
     
    choklab likes this.
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,128
    13,067
    Jan 4, 2008
    Yeah, he lost part of the title after something like 5 years straight without facing the top contender. What would we be saying about Floyd if he did something like that?
     
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

    37,077
    3,733
    Sep 14, 2005
    He was until he defeated 3 out of the 4 semi finalists of the WBA tournament by knockout
     
  14. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

    29,926
    36,714
    Jul 24, 2004
    Cus D'Amato protected Patterson more than a mother bear protects her cubs. No HW who was knocked down numerous times by a Swede who trained for his bouts with beer and blonds can be taken seriously. He was one of the worst HW champs ever.
     
    Longhhorn71 likes this.
  15. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    28,128
    13,067
    Jan 4, 2008
    With the same logic, Floyd should only be seen as protected until he faced these guys or the ones who brutally KO'd them.