Why the double standards?For Bute-Froch and Calzaghe-Lacy?

Hi mate,

You've made some good points there.

But I think the U.S. fans and media overlooked Joe, and had foreseen a victory, because they had hardly seen Joe fight. I think it was ignorance and arrogance. I think that's the only reason Joe was an underdog. I think if the U.S. fans had've seen him fight on a regular basis, the odds would have been a lot different, and they wouldn't have been shocked by the outcome.

They were looking for a fighter at the time, to pin there hopes on. Lacey's physique was great, and his left hook was great, and he looked very impressive. But the truth is, he hadn't beaten any great fighters. Great performance by Joe though.

Regards, Loudon.

 

I agree.

 

both are great wins. there is no doubt on that matter.

the calzaghe vs lacy fight was bigger on the basis that lacy was "american" whereas bute is canadian, but both were fights that were as big as each other.

the reason the americans don't give much credit on the win is due to them favoring lacy overwhelmingly, but joe then beats the **** out of him and outclasses him on a ridiculous level, so it makes them look stupid and inferior. the only line of defence for a nation that has to always win is to discredit it by saying lacy was **** in the first place... even though they themselves picked him to destroy calzaghe.

it just shows you how arrogant, fickle, and unsportsmanlike they truly are. i'll always give credit where it's due, but they give it begrudgingly ( for a week or two, tops). after a while they give no credit what so ever and just disrespect the win.

but hay, isn't that what we have come to expect from the yanks? it's why i like to see their fighters have the **** kicked out of them. not all of them, but most. i don't feel that way towards any other nation... they have a little bit more respect. they're boxing fans, not arrogant flag wavers who can't take losing.

 

Alright mate,

I agree with you as well. I never felt that Calzaghe was going to lose because most of Lacy's wins looked good but came against unspectacular opposition. However, anytime you win a fight as underdog you deserve recognition. Joe's greatest achievement from that fight wasn't the win, it wasn't even the IBF belt. It was the fact that he was able to prove everyone wrong and go on to unify and become undisputed SMW champ against a better fighter even when he was said to be old and past it.

You are completely right Lacy wasn't really top level but what Joe did after was and defined his career far greater than anything before hand. It was the springboard that gave him recognition once more as an A/A+ level fighter.

 

Boom.

 

Hi mate,

yes I agree.

After Lacy, the whole of America stood up and took notice. But he was 34 by then. He could have, and should have, put in a Lacy type performance for the American's 5 or 6 years earlier, and then who knows how his career might have turned out?

He showed the World his skills, but then retired just two years later. It was a waste.


Regards, Loudon.

 

Well we all know that it was Bhop's fault they didn't fight in 2002 although I feel the 2008 bout was probably a fair representation of how it would have gone but who knows.

As Knockout artist showed on a different thread Pavlik declined the chance to fight Calzaghe in 2006 and 2007 so that fight wasn't gonna happen. Joe was quoted saying he wanted to face the winner of Pavlik-Taylor. He offered Jermain Taylor $4m after he beat Bhop to fight him and Taylor wanted $10m.
As RJJ, but when Joe was after Bhop RJJ was at HW for Ruiz and after that tried to hang around and fight Lewis, Tyson or Holyfield according to his people. Joe could have fought him later but as to why that didn't happen is the subject of great debate itself and not something I claim to know

So don't be so harsh on Joe for not showcasing his talent in America because he gosh darn tried.

Also when he retired he was 36 and didn't have BHop's longevity or RJJ's stupidity (or money problems?). I still maintain that Joe retired at the right time because there is nothing wrong with retiring at the top of the game

Cheers mate

 

I think the B Hop situation was more complex than B Hop just not wanting it. Zod's got some great links, of how the Calzaghe fight was part of a three fight deal.

The Pavlik claims are also very controversial.

Joe didn't want anything to do with Roy, after he'd come back from heavy and lost to Tarver and Johnson.

Pavlik and Taylor were discussed after Lacy. My point is regarding Joe pushing himself pre Lacy. Before Lacy and Kessler were on the scene, Joe's 168 division was weak. He could have moved up after Ottke didn't want to unify. He could have tried to lure Roy in the ring by beating DM for his belt.

According to Roy in a recent interview, HBO offered $5M to DM to go over to America.

Joe could have been in that position. It's not beyond the realms of posibility.

Apart from Hopkins, he didn't try to fight any big names before Lacy.

Now, he could have moved up, and he could have been avoided like the plague. We don't know? I'm willing to accept that, that could have been a possibility. He could have been avoided at all costs. But he could have at least have tried to move up and push himself.

As each year passed, it was getting harder for him to make 168, and he was losing motivation. In 2004, he said he was looking to move up and test himself, and he said he wanted big money fights, against big names. Yet he stayed at 168 to fight the likes of Evans Ashira.

So you can say Hop messed him around (but I'd look into it) but you can't say he really pushed himself for the big fights, like someone like Ricky Hatton.

I have sympathy for him, because he was caught between two good era's of the 168 division, but he could have moved up and been in the mix with Roy, DM, Griffin, Harding, Tarver, Glen, Johnson, Gonzalez etc. Again, they may have tried to swerve him, but he could have at least put himself in that position in the first place.

Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

Generalize much? Do you have any other examples of this behavior? Is it widespread? Or is it this particular case that has you so upset? Because, no offense, that post smacks of being a basic online tantrum against a certain group of people who don't agree with you on this subject.

 

Hi Mate :hi:

I understand what you mean about the Hopkins three fight deal, but the fact is Calzaghe had also made offers to Hopkins after the showtime/HBO whoever it was three fight contract fell through. It was Calzaghe and ****** who were making standalone offers that Hopkins also refused or rather asked for more. I agree it's not so open/close but nothing ever really is in boxing especially when large sums of cash are on the table. There is also a quote from Frank Waren saying that King and Hopkins had agreed to $4m and then the next day demanded $8m. These were in negotiations between Joe's people and Bhop's people to fight in America at 175. The fact that Bhop and his boys agreed to it suggests that they knew what they were agreeing to before the next day demanding $8m from Joe and Waren.

As for the Pavlik claims I feel there is enough grounding and quote evidence to confidently agree that Joe did indeed try to make something happen with Pavlik. Whether you've seen enough to disagree is your opinion as there is nothing cast-iron there.

As to why he could have moved up earlier, it's not a great excuse but maybe Calzaghe wnated to cement his legacy as the greatest at SMW rather than just go down as a great LHW. That is a selfish reason but there could be something to it.

Hatton pushed himself into big fights because he believed in his own hype. Calzaghe knew there was fighter who H2H was probably too much and that was RJJ but he didn't have anywhere the near the same reasons to ear anyone else. The issue here is none of us was present at the negotiations or Calzaghe HQ when they were reaching out and contacting these fighters. So we can either believe Calaghe's version of events or the slightly more negative version of events that you put forward or Zod's extremely Calzaghe damning events. I fall between your events and Calzaghe's in terms of who I believe. I feel that he did want to fight all of the fighters he was linked with (BHop, Pavlik, Tayler) but not RJJ who he claims to have chased since 2000 odd.

As for the final list of fighters only RJJ and maybe would have been fighters worth Joe's time otherwise the rest would pad out his record similar to many of his wins at SMW of being good/average but unspectacular.

It really is a great debate and I'm glad that there doesn't seem to be a large influx of trolls ruining it. Rather people properly debating the subject.

All the best mate

 

Hi loudon, Back 5 or 6 years hopkins backed out with calzaghe by demanding double + the original offer, I get your point but its not all Joes fault

 

would probably gone along the same path, calzaghe would have done to Pavlik what he did to Lacy and Hopkins the same to lacy as he did to Pavlik