Why the Ortiz win means nothing for Wilders resumee

Povetkin's best win was probably Whyte. Vitali's was a toss up between old Sanders and Chisora. Haye's was Chisora or last fight Valuev. I guess wins over Povetkin, Vitali and Haye count for little or nothing because they didn't have top level wins.

Ortiz was officially 38 when Wilder beat him. However old he was, he was 4.5 years younger, 7 fights and 2 KO's fresher than he was when Joshua-conqueror Ruiz scraped by him over 12 rounds.

Ortiz was top 5 ranked by Ring, top 5 by PBO and top 4 ranked by TBRB when Wilder beat him in 2018. However old he was, he was one of the top heavyweights. Wilder thus gets credit for beating a top 5 fighter in fight 1 and a top 6 fighter in fight 2. I don't know how juiced he was for the Jennings fight or the Wilder fights but I assume the A-side as usual had an advantage there. It's not specific to Wilder.

Ortiz was considered dangerous enough for Povetkin, Joyce and many others to avoid, even after Wilder had KO'd him.

Whether you are overhyped is relative to the hype and the ability; Mike Tyson received a lot more hype and he was the favourite in his first three losses, an absurd favourite in his first two. Wilder wasn't hyped until he won the WBC title and still not that much until he'd made several defences. For instance, David Price won ESPN's prospect of the year in 2012, that's the best prospect across all weight classes in that year. Seth Mitchell also got more hype back in the Klitschko era. ESPN is an American corporation but it wasn't hyping Wilder, despite him being American and having a bronze medal (the only U.S. male medallist from 2008-2012).

https://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/story/_/id/8784628/david-price

https://www.boxing247.com/boxing-ne...ine-online-poll-results-say-seth-mitchell/725

 

Ortiz was objectively a very good win despite him being massively overhyped by the fanboys. In the first fight I’d have ranked him number 5 in the world, in the second maybe around 9/10.

 

Its as simple as the following for PBC fans:

Wilder has a sensational win over 38yr old Ortiz that was HOF-worthy

Parker beats and dominates an old 38 yr Wilder but it didnt mean anything cus Wilder old

"okay"

 

Ortiz was ranked top 5 by all major independent rankings bodies, therefore it's a top 5 win. Ortiz's best win was top 6 Jennings, just as Povetkin's was Whyte, Haye's Chisora etc.

Ortiz won most of the rounds on the three cards against Ruiz, Arreola won one or two rounds on each card. Ruiz-Ortiz was much closer, despite the KD's.

I don't know how juiced Ortiz was vs Jennings compared to the Wilder fight, or Povetkin against Joshua compared to say the Duhaupas fight. It's speculative, though I'm sure the A-side always has an advantage here. Just as Wlad did when he Greco-Roman wrestled Povetkin or Peter for 12 rounds.

Lots of HW's, coaches and managers have admitted to avoiding Ortiz or obviously avoided him.

Ortiz wasn't part of PBC prior to 2017. In 2015/2016 you had guys like Kellerman and Hatman saying he had a great chance vs Wlad and Joshua. The hype had nothing to do with PBC.

Glad to clear that up.

 

The hypocrisy is hilarious, fanboys like beard will do anything to prop up Wilder’s resume. Truth is him and Ortiz were both past their bests at 38 but still had some left in the tank and were dangerous fights. Parker was simply too good for Wilder.

 

Ortiz was oberhyped and overrated. Probably because he beat Jennings better than Wlad who fight him when he had big personal problems and change in life.

Ortiz was good offensive boxer with good skills and hand power and speed but also he got pretty average chin and average foot work.

Wilder check him with his friends Malik Scott first and probably he got assurance in WBC Vada test + probably they got leaks/rumors that Ortiz chin is suspected.

They choose Ortiz because Wilder must win with someone on higher level at last because his resume was horrible and his best money fight was 1,5 millions $.

That's good win but not soo good as Wilder fans saying in past.

But still. 1 Ortiz fight is best Wilder win and probably only one on high level.

 

It's a win that's aged very poorly based on what both guys went on to achieve, or not achieve as the case was.

Clinging to what Max Kellerman was saying about Ortiz eight years ago says it all really.

 

RE Kellerman, I was refuting the narrative that Ortiz was a product of the PBC hype machine. HBO were hyping Ortiz prior to that, as well as guys like Hatman. Gasman pretends that he didn't rate Ortiz as a top 5 heavyweight but the videos are still there where he picks Ortiz over Whyte and Ruiz in 2019 and gives him a very good chance against Joshua in 2016. He picked Ortiz to beat Wlad in America in 2016.

Ortiz was officially virtually 39 when he got his first title shot, which was far from ideal but the Ortiz wins aged fine. He wiped out Cojanu in 2 in his next fight post-Wilder 1, who comfortably took Parker 12 in a world title fight. He went on to challenge again, was offered shots against Joshua and Wilder in 2019. Post-Wilder 2, he got off the floor twice to destroy Martin at 42+, which is probably the most notable win by a heavyweight of that age or older since Foreman KO'd Moorer. Only Ruiz has beat him other than Wilder and that was 4.5 years, 7 fights and 2 KO defeats later, by a close 12 round decision. Ortiz was a ranked heavyweight for 6 or 7 years with the various bodies, until 2021 or 2022.

Ortiz never won a title and never had a huge win but neither did Povetkin. Pre-2019 Ortiz always performed well relative to Joyce, Pulev, Whyte, Parker and Chisora against mutual opponents.

 

Ortiz was hyped back in 2016 or whenever he beat Jennings and Thompson but he never panned out as predicted. That's why I said Wilder's wins over him aged very poorly. People thought Ortiz was going to be something special only he wasn't and the only arguments you can make in favor of him involve how quickly he dispatched this or that bum/journeyman relative to someone else because he literally just has those names on his win column. Like why the hell are you bringing up how quickly he could KO Razvan Cojanu relative to Parker like that has some bearing on how good he was? Who effing cares? How quickly did he KO Joshua or Ruiz or Povetkin or Parker or Whyte? We can't answer that because he never went anywhere near them. I don't care where official sanctioning bodies had him ranked at the time. All sorts of riffraff get ranked at one time or another. It's just a numbers game. Irrelevant in the bigger picture unless that's all you have to cling to and build your argument off.

Don't compare Ortiz to Povetkin. Povetkin had the stones to get in there with the best and has the resume to prove it. He has wins over Whyte (beat Parker who beat up your boy Wilder who beat up your other boy Ortiz x2), Chagaev (former WBA champ and Valuev conqueror), Huck, Byrd (former champ with wins over Vitali, Evander and prime Tua), Chambers (win over former champ Peter who beat Toney x2) plus a ton more like Takam, Duhaupas (KO'd him where Wilder couldn't), Wach, Charr, Perez (1st round KO). Ortiz has Jennings (lost to Joyce and half-blind Rivas by KO, never had a decent win in his career), Thompson (Wlad KO victim without a single good win), Scott (nuff said, and Chisora KOed him where Ortiz failed to) and Charles Martin (seen as a joke by Joshua haters until it became one of Ortiz's best wins, and he nearly got KOed anyway). Then you have to scrape the barrel and talk about fights he lost but did well in (while getting knocked down and receiving massive black eyes) or that his opponents lost but did well in or talk about total scrubs that he managed to stop quicker than some other dude with miles better wins on his resume.

 

"That's why I said Wilder's wins over him aged very poorly."

This makes no sense. Wilder beating Ortiz (twice) meant that Ortiz wasn't going to live up to the hype by definition, it doesn't mean that Wilder's wins over him "aged poorly".

"We can't answer that because he never went anywhere near them."

No, they never went anywhere near him. Actually Ruiz did, after trying to get out of the fight with 43+ 2 KO defeats Ortiz to fight kickboxer Spong in Mexico instead.

"where official sanctioning bodies had him ranked at the time"

Wrong again. Ring/TBRB/PBO are not "sanctioning bodies". But they all had Ortiz top 5.

"Povetkin had the stones to get in there with the best"

Except Wlad in 2008, Wlad in 2010 and Ortiz in 2014:

https://www.rbth.com/sport/2014/04/...itschko_rematch_continue_to_recede_35827.html

Ortiz was a clear underdog against Wilder x2 and Ruiz, fighting them between the ages of 38 and 43 (officially). He has never quit or fought to survive rather than win. There are no grounds to question his courage. There are more grounds to question Povetkin's heart given that he allowed Wlad to molest him without fouling him back.

Povetkin's best wins are Whyte and Huck (50-50 disputed decision), Ortiz's are Jennings and Martin. Neither beat anyone that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Guys like Takam and Chagaev wouldn't even fight Ortiz, ducking fights with him.

 

Who was fighting Ortiz back then?

Nobody because he was the most dangerous man in boxing. Nobody messing with slick hard hitting southpaw cubans.

Wilders took a lot of punishment in that fight and showed his toughness to win by beating an exhausted Ortiz.

It was a legit win against a legit fighter