Why the polarised views on Dempsey?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Apr 10, 2011.


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  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    so we are to dismiss the opinions of historians regarding dempsey, yet concur with the opinions regarding Wills?

    The only barometer we have to compare is due to style and the Sharky/fulton fights both had.

    The reason I rate Dempsey as the unquestionable best is nothing to do with any of this at all. I am a firm believer in linearity. Simply put, Dempsey beat the man hence was the man.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #211
  2. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    You missed the point. Wills proved his talent and the kind things wrote about him with victory over class opposition. Dempsey did not.
     
    manbearpig, Apr 13, 2011
    manbearpig, Apr 13, 2011
    #212
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    :huh
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #213
  4. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    What?
    Do you dispute this or are you confused about what was said?
     
    manbearpig, Apr 13, 2011
    manbearpig, Apr 13, 2011
    #214
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    confused. what is about wills reign that makes it so much higher class then dempseys?
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #215
  6. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    1. Its not a matter of no scientific proof, you haven't seen Wills fight he could be better than Muhammed Ali or worse than John Ruiz for all you know, but you pick Dempsey anyway, that is unobjective and bad logic. As a maths teacher you certainly should have better logic than this.

    2. I've explained the rules of boxing to you and you choose to ignore them to suit your agenda, yes I'm calling bias now that your ignoring the rules of boxing to give 1 of your favourite fighters an undeserved win.

    A recap on the rules: A knock down is based on a refs count, not your seconds hand on your stop watch AND a count does not start anyway until the standing fighter makes his way to a neutral corner. Going to continue to igore the rules?

    Martinez-Cintron officiating was terrible as was the judging, the only issue with a the Dempsey-Tunney judging was a slightly slow count, counts are never 100% accurate because its human a ref can not

    3. Fighters rarely fight everyone BUT the greats fight the best, Dempsey didn't fight anyone as remotely good as Wills and that's what makes it so bad. Dempsey never fought the very best until he faced Tunney, you saw what happened there.
     
    PowerPuncher, Apr 13, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Apr 13, 2011
    #216
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    How much respect is lost for Wills for never fighting dempsey?
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #217
  8. manbearpig

    manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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    I never said anything regarding that. You mentioned in regards to McGrain's statement, "you take their views on Wills but not Dempsey" or whatever it was. But Wills proved his praise was warranted with victory over great competition. So there is no need to merely rely on 'expert's views'. Unlike with Dempsey....
     
    manbearpig, Apr 13, 2011
    manbearpig, Apr 13, 2011
    #218
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    :good have a good day sir
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #219
  10. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    Wills wanted the fight so none but in turn Wills can't be a top10 great because he didn't beat Dempsey much like Dempsey can't be top10 because he didn't fight Wills/Greb and didn't beat Tunney. If you compare records Wills has the deeper resume so he has a case to be ranked higher

    I wouldn't try to pick a winner of the fight though given I've never seen a near prime Wills box
     
    PowerPuncher, Apr 13, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Apr 13, 2011
    #220
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No. Why on earth would you think that? Wills beat better men than Dempsey. It has nothing to do with dismissing opinions on Dempsey's head to head ability.

    Of course, this is nonsense. I suppose next you are going to tell me that Red Cochrane was better than Charley Burley?
     
    McGrain, Apr 13, 2011
    McGrain, Apr 13, 2011
    #221
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Much less.

    He tested himself against the very best of his era over and again, all that would fight him.
     
    McGrain, Apr 13, 2011
    McGrain, Apr 13, 2011
    #222
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I appreciate that the times then are different and I hate to sound crude but basically dempsey was the white champ and wills was the black champ.

    I've explained before, but I believe in linearity so I put him clearly ahead because he beat willard who beat johnson who beat etc....

    I get that Wills has the "coloured" contenders on his resume like jeanette, langford, Mcvea. but how do we know these are so great? very limited footage is around.

    Basically my point is the historians rated Dempsey better as a fighter. I rate him better due to linearity, that way objection or bias plays no part.

    I have literally no opinion on Wills, but this debate has intrigued me regarding him and I'll research him now. I'd never considered him as top 20 because of his brutal losses to langford and the fact he never fought Dempsey.

    I guess it's about how legitimate the coloured title was, I dunno the answer.

    As I stated at the start of the thread, my quest is to name my best 20 heavies, and due to the passion people feel towards Wills I'll look him up some and see if he becomes part of it :good
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #223
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    :good have a good day sir
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #224
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    "better" this is becoming word play now. There was no dispute to the claim that Dempsey had as a champion.

    on what basis do you rate these wills victims as better than dempseys victims? genuine interest btw, not sarcasm, as previously mentioned I'm gonna research Wills.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    lufcrazy, Apr 13, 2011
    #225
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