It doesn't matter what your style is though. If you keep winning title eliminators and establish yourself as a top contender regardless of weight you deserve a shot. It's not even like Greb was unpopular or unknown at the time, and he wasn't black either. He DID in fact annihilate Fred Fulton(?) inside a single round just like Jack did, and certainly Fulton was well regarded. Greb overwhelmed Dempsey with his speed, humiliated him publically in those sparring sessions. As a result, Kearns avoided him quite actively. For what it's worth I don't know if he could beat him head to head, it is a top 10 heavy vs. a middleweight but there was enough risk for him to be actively avoided.
I don't care. Greb beat a lot of the guys Dempsey matched (Even before Dempsey came to the title - when Greb was already chasing him). He was qualified, one of the top contenders in the eyes of the public, and in the words of one pressman of the time, "Dempsey cannot even so "go and get a reputation", as Greb arguably has one even more impressive than the champion." Press and public wanted to see the fight (though nothing like the force in which they wanted to see the Wills fight). Winning by ko's doesn't matter. He beat many good HW's. Finally, he would have tested Dempsey. A legitimate test from a great fighter. A test Demspey enver passed though he had the opportunity. But he was never #1 contender...far more qualified than Carpantier though, a lighter-punching smaller white man Dempsey somehow found time to take on. No threat. Gatti-Mayweather, too. Demspey was box office magic. Firpo was nowhere near the #1 contender slot when he was installed as challenger. Nor was Carpantier. An impressive machine made both viable.
Dempsey, Duran, Tyson, maybe SRL. There are certainly others who inflame passions and widely disparate opinions.
think im gonna make a thread about Jack Dempsey's love affair with Lupe velez and Ann Pennington to see how many pages that would go.
I think winning by KO does matter, especially in those days when the heavyweight championship had never changed hands on a decision. Often they didn't even believe in giving out decisions. Greb is credited with a load of "wins" that weren't even official. If you're 5'8 and 163 pounds and you don't knock anyone out, it's hard to get into the heavyweight title fight. It's harsh but true. I don't believe the public wanted Greb as challenger any more than they wanted the others. Where did he come in the polls ? I saw one poll by a PITTSBURGH paper that had him at 4th or 5th in the public's choice for Dempsey's challenger. It may not be fair but it's a reality. Carpentier could much punch harder than Greb, I reckon. And even then the promoters had to hide from the fact that he was just a big middleweight. After the Carpentier fight, Dempsey against another midget might not have drawn so well. Absolutely. And the same can be said of Gerry Cooney, and even RING magazine and several 'experts' called him the outstanding contender to Holmes, I believe. Most of these perceptions and ratings are partly based on good press and PR. Look at David Haye, for example.
What year did this sparring session occur? McGrain what evidence is there of Greb chasing Dempsey pre-championship?
As someone who loves going after Dempsey and Greb i feel like you'd have written this one down as a sticking point http://www.harrygreb.com/dempsey_greb.html
Greb seems to have been quite liberal with his head: 'Early in the third round Greb's head collided with Dempsey's mouth, cutting the champion's tongue so severly that he spat blood for the remainder of the round' To be fair if I was Dempsey I might not want to fight a headbutter either
Well fighters who weren't KO punchers got title fights. "Clever boxers" were valued in even the fight to the finish era. More importantly, Dempsey and Greb both fought at a time when decisions were rendered, over as little as ten rounds, so the point is meaningless. Nobody said "no point in giving Gibbons the shot at Dempsey, he won't knock him out". It is worth noting that Greb continued to pursue Dempsey even after he seemed to feel he would lose, and still Dempsey refused, though there was serious talk of Greb becoming a "warm up" opponent for the inactive Dempsey before the Tunney fight. Klompton will be along to correct me, but I think they may even have been considering a distance of 8, which seems crazy for Dempsey. Tunney was no puncher at HW, nor was Corbett. Nor were unsuccessful challengers. They got shots. I saw one that had him third. I don't have any way to interview members of the public from the era. What I do have is press from the era. There is plenty calling for Greb to be met by Dempsey. But I don't really care about any of this as far as the thread goes. I think that Greb was legitimately a man who could have beaten Jack. He needed that. We have the sparring, the great results against common opponents and i'm impressed by Greb's seeming total surity that he would win (before he started to slide) in the same way I was with Holyfield's surity. I personally think Greb could have beaten Dempsey over 10 rounds; i'd pick him. More crucially, I believe Wills was the most dangerous HW in the world outside of Dempsey up until Tunney took over. Meaning Dempsey never beat the best HW in the world unless you insist that the inactive, unimpressive Willard was such, which I think would be fair actually. I'm away from my kit right now but I will dig something out on this a bit later, possibly tomorrow. As I remember, Dempsey elected to fight Levinsky instead of Greb even though Greb had thrashed Levinsky something like five times. This somehow became some sort of eliminator.
Yeah well Dempsey had his fair share of fouls as well, obviously not on the same level of Greb but people in glass houses etc etc
Chris, I would also include jack sharkey to this list as a very good fighter. Dempseys best win by far, Although very controversial because Dempsey was getting his ass kicked by sharkey until he fouled him in the balls.
The fact that Tunney had knocked out Gibbons was featured heavily in him being qualified to challenge for the championship. He was perceived as not only a clever boxer but at least a respectable puncher from that win. He acknowledged so himself. Still not everyone was convinced, it is true. And Tunney was pretty big. As I stated, the fact that Greb was small as well as lacking a KO punch, he just didn't cut the figure of a heavyweight champion. But the reality of it cannot be denied. Winning the heavyweight title by decision was considered with scepticism or downright disapproval, and with Greb that's the ONLY way he's going to win it. Maybe Dempsey should have fought him in a finish fight. You don't care about any of this, and I understand why. But not only Greb. Look how many were calling for Carpentier. Gibbons again. Even Willard. I think Greb may well have beaten Dempsey too, esp. over 10 rounds. But I get from your posts that you think the defences that Dempsey did take part in were obvious foregone conclusions. Like he just fought the men who obviously posed no threat. That can be done with any fighter who dominates his opposition, esp. when you can find a couple of men who on paper appear better. It's easy to call "hype job", "no hoper" and "has been" after the fact. Maybe that's true. So, how many times did the other great heavyweights beat the man who you deem undisputedly the best available ? Larry Holmes is a champion I hold as great, but he did it once, maybe twice at a push. Ali fought Foreman in the 70s when Foreman was clearly the best other man, and won. The other time he did it in the 70s he lost to Frazier. In the 60s he did it Liston once, and throw in Terrell if you want. If Ali only did it 4 times, and lost once, I suspect several of the top ATG heavyweights did it very little too.
Cael, have you seen 'The Gaucho', where Velez stars opposite Douglas Fairbanks Sr? Good adventure flick, and Velez is terrific, probably the only female lead that Doug ever had who matched his vivacity. (Though Anna Mae Wong also deserves some notice for her fine supporting work in 'Thief of Bagdad').