Why Vitali is a top 10 HW ATG

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014.


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  1. I Know Everythi

    I Know Everythi Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Both Klitschkos are extremely overrated since they have annually been placed among the top 10 p4p for the past few years in several p4p lists. To claim that they are underrated is fallacious and a terrible farce. Simply copy pasting statistics such as the Klitschkos W-L record or KO ratios and numerically comparing them to other great heavyweights simply demonstrates an inability to use logical thinking and an inability to put these misleading statistics into context. After the Holyfield Bowe Tyson Lewis era was finished, the post early 2000s heavyweight division became the weakest division in the history of any weight class of any era since perhaps the beginning of boxing as a sport.

    All of the wins in both Klitschkos resumes come against fighters years and years beyond their prime, with padded records, with no name fighters who should not be in a boxing ring to begin with, or some combination of these flaws.

    The biggest and most impressive win on both Klitschko's resume is Samuel Peter - who still managed to knock down the bum Wladimir 3 times in one fight. Samuel Peter as your best win does not make you an all time great or a top 10 p4p fighter for several years. In a weak era where Samuel Peter was the best fighter you beat (and one that Wladimir struggled with), it doesn't matter how many title defenses, knockouts, wins, etc. you have. You are not among the elite.

    Lennox Lewis - even at 38 years old, fat, in the worst shape of his career, was barely losing on the scorecard 58-56 to Vitali - which could easily have been scored a draw at that point (yet so many idiotic fans try to use this slim edge as validation that Klitschko "won" the fight) and still managed to take complete control of the fight heading into the 6th round and smashed Vitali's face so badly that a medical professional could not allow Vitali to get further annihilated and, in hindsight, Lennox exposed Vitali as a fraudulent champion fighting in a weak era like Rocky Marciano.

    Vitali was not dominating the fight. He had a decent start and as the fight went on he was eating uppercuts left and right and continued to clinch excessively. Lennox Lewis (remember - a 38 year old, fat, out of shape Lennox Lewis) still gave him fits and forced a doctor to stop the fight because Vitali was taking such a beating. Ironically people consider this humiliating face bashing to be Vitali's shining moment - that shows how overrated of a boxer you are when getting your faced smashed while having the slimmest of leads on the scorecard is your crowning achievement.

    What I have written is UNDISPUTED truth and FACTUAL. This is not opinion or conjecture. I challenge any human being on earth to try and dispute the infallible assertion that, in general, the Klitshkos are extremely overrated by the media and public.

    The following arguments do not disprove what has been written above and if one uses these fallacious arguments it will only prove one's own incompetence - much like Wladimir proved his incompetence as a boxer in getting demolished by Brewster (and falsely making up a poison excuse, no less.) Sanders and Puritty, and how Vitali demonstrated his incompetence as a boxer in having a relatively terrible performance against a trash version of Lennox Lewis.

    1) Vitali is 45-2 with losses coming by injury stoppages and a 87% KO ratio. Wladimir is 59-3 with 51 KOs. Few boxers can match these numbers.
    And who was the best opponent these boxers beat? Samuel Peter. Padded records mean nothing. Brian Nielsen was 49-0 at one point. Eric Esch was 61-1-3 at one point. Copy pasting statistics does not prove anything when you fail to put them in context. I highly doubt anyone is foolish enough to put Eric Esch above Evander Holyfield despite the fact that Esch has a higher winning percentage. If Holyfield fought both Klitschko's level of competition he would walk through them without a scratch.

    2) Lennox Lewis was afraid of Vitali and ducked a rematch.
    First of all - Lennox Lewis made Riddick Bowe duck HIM, he fought Holyfield twice, was willing to fight Tyson for several years and finally did, fought Mccall and Rahman even after being KOd, and Tommy Morrison, but some people are foolish enough to think he is scared of fighting KLITSCHKO of all people???
    Secondly as mentioned several times - Lennox was 38, fat, in the worst shape ever, past his prime, and still made Vitali's face look like the deer my friend killed and put through the grinder a few weeks ago.
    Thirdly - Why should a man in the physical twilight of his career (Lennox) risk his health for one more fight when he didn't take the fight seriously in the first place (still winning by TKO) and already proved his place among the all time greats? Vitali should be on his knees kissing Lennox's feet for even giving a bum like Klitschko the opportunity to fight an all time great like Lennox. Lennox isn't in the position of Joe Louis who had to come back and fight because of IRS problems, so he has no reason to risk his health after already risking it for over a decade against fighters lightyears beyond Klitschko.

    3) the Klitschkos are foreign so they do not get respect.
    really? Marquez, Pacquiao, Chavez sr, Duran, Monzon, Sergio Martinez, Genady Golovkin, Adonis Stevenson, Maidana, Rigondeux, Donaire do not get respect?
    anyone who said this - shut up. No need to pull the race/nationality card

    4) The Klitschkos have X amount of title defenses
    Again, copy pasting statistics does not prove anything. Look at the men that the REAL heavyweights had to fight compared to the bum Klitschkos.
    Bowe, Lennox, Moorer, Tua, Tyson, Evander, Morrison, Spinks, Foreman, Patterson, Frazier, Norton, Liston, etc.

    Now lets compare the Klitschkos wins - Peter, old washed up Mercer, old washed up Rahman, Chris Byrd, Orlin Norris (who lost to a washed up Tyson), Purrity, Sanders, 38 year old fat Lennox, Chisora, Haye, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers. the hilarious thing is that they actually lost to some of these fighters on the list.

    HUGE difference in competition.

    Anyone who legitimately believes the farce that either Klitschko is an all time great heavyweight (let alone an ATG p4p fighter) is simply one of the many sheep that blindly follow the herd without thinking for themselves. I have blessed such blind sheep with my wisdom and knowledge and opened their eyes to the truth. It is time for these blind sheep to acknowledge the truth, otherwise I fear that these sheep blindly stumbling through the dark for so long will deny the truth even more vehemently now that these blind sheep have been exposed to the light of truth.

    You do have to give the Klitschkos credit for dominating the division, even though it is incredibly weak. That in itself deserves SOME merit. You should not, however, put them among the all time greats after Vitali has been exposed by Lennox Lewis and Wladimir got showed up by Purrity Brewster and Sanders, and struggled against Sam Peter.

    Again - I challenge any human being to try and refute my indisputable factual statements at the risk of making themselves look as incompetent as the Klitschkos in their attempts to be ranked among all time great heavyweights. If any human being can refute the irrefutable facts listed, I will respond and recognize their superior wisdom and knowledge. Unfortunately for Klitschko fans, the only people who possess wisdom and knowledge superior to myself would never try and refute these facts in the first place. For that reason, the chances of receiving a response from myself are negligible.
     
    I Know Everythi, Mar 13, 2014
    I Know Everythi, Mar 13, 2014
    #31
  2. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Ha! Funny little fool. You used this tripe before, and I already thoroughly shot it down. I'll find my comment and post it shortly.
     
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #32
  3. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Let me translate for the non brain dead:"I don't like what you have to say. You are using logic to debunk the myth of the golden oldies. You are therefore biased. You're a troll, because your rational and I don't like what you have to say".

    Seriously, you have absolutely nothing here, dude. You fail to respond intelligently (or even really in any kind of responsive way at all) to my points. Old timers, for various reasons, fought top competitors more often, at least to some degree, in the past than now. You can rationally (and also rationally not do so) use that to put comparable modern HW's lower on the ATG list than earlier ones. I.E. #5 of an earlier era is number 45 while #5 of this era is number 55 all time. That's a rational, but debatable, way of doing things. You can't put #5 of that era at #20 all time and #5 of this era at #200, which is exactly the type of irrational bs you are trying to do.

    But then, I'm talking as if you're even capable of using logic and understanding rational points. You've shown you're not capable of that. Anyway, point is, for those people who value logic, VK is clearly a top 10 ATG HW.
     
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #33
  4. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Here we go:

    Wow, you're a sad, hateful little man. Here's how it is, son, using words like "rational" doesn't mean that you're being rational, and the plain truth is your not. You have no "facts" as you claim, just hate. Let me break down your (lack of) argument:
    Paragraph 1: You say that objective stats don't matter. Instead, your subjective opinion about the state of the HW division matters. Sorry, son, that's literally the reverse of logic
    Paragraph 2: Another subjective opinion on the quality of opposition, absolutely no indisputable facts
    Paragraph 3: I agree, Sam Peter is the best win on their record. Their dominance prevented him from having more acclaim. If he beat VK in their match, won a couple more defenses as he almost certainly would have, then lost in a rematch to Vitali, his resume would actually have been more impressive than Joe Frazier's. The K's dominance makes it a less dramatic era, and to some extent, their reputation will suffer a bit because of it, but it doesn't change their base status as ATG's.
    Paragraph's 4-5: LL was near prime, VK was preprime. Its was one of the great HW matches in history. It's ongoing controversy only proves the stature of both fighters. Post prime champs have beaten future champs in the past (Schmeling vs Louis, Frazier, who had become blind in one eye, vs Ali,) and a rematch showed the initially beaten fighter to be better after all. VK did indisputably better than those fighters did in their initial match, and its absurd to say a rematch wasn't warranted. If not for that match, then no rematch is ever needed.
    Paragraph 6: you talk a lot about indisputable truth and then use words entirely too big for the logical limitations you have shown like saying its not conjecture etc. Except, as I've shown, everything you state is fact averse and conjecture dependent.

    Rest of the paragraphs: Rinse and repeat. No logic. Just "I hate the current HW's and believe as an article of faith that they are bad, I refuse to make rational comparisons to past eras, and I refuse to acknowledge the actual facts that illustrate the dominance of the brothers, the only things that actually ARE facts, ko percentage, rounds won, height weight of themselves and their era." Guess what, those are about the only "indisputable", non "conjecture" based things about boxing, and they all demonstrate how dominant the K's and this HW era is.

    Parting thought. The ironic thing is without the Klitschkos, its entirely possible some combination of the fighters they've dominated would have placed themselves above the rest of the competition like Ali, Frazier and Foreman did (and to a lesser extent Norton). Its quite possible a similar confluence of belt trading would have happened as in that era, and, presumably as long as an American was one of the victors, people like you would be talking about how great the era is.
     
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #34
  5. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Please tell us how this is the best era ever for H2H greatness.

    I have no idea why the Lewis-Vitali fight is controversial. The stoppage was perfectly fair. The sad thing is, Klittards have to spin Vitali's two losses by saying that he was ahead on the scorecards when those fights were stopped.
     
    VG_Addict, Mar 13, 2014
    VG_Addict, Mar 13, 2014
    #35
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I haven't seen a lot of logic tbh. To me it just seems like a crazy rant - most of your posts in answer to people who disagree with you seem to be bordering on literally insane. It's funny, but worrying. I mean why do you think you react so violently to opposition despite your being in the minority, generally?

    Well, I haven't really tried yet because you're first post you didn't use the quote button - it made you seem more unhinged and made what you said impossible to quote, making communication difficult. Why don't we start now? Why don't you explain, for example, in a post seperate from mine if you quote it, why Adamek should be ranked above Machen, as you've claimed?

    Well done! Good! Good. Hold on to that thought.

    GOOD. So we agree then that it's reasonable to base fighters who beat more top fighters higher than fighters who beat fewer top fighters?

    So, are you condoning a ranking system whereby every fighter is ranked by era then those fighters are ranked according to the ranking in their era?

    What does this tell us about the relative strengths of these eras, and do you think that is important.

    Yes, continue to talk to my like i'm a complete fool. This will help us in the long run because what you say is difficult to understand.

    Yes - I understand. You are saying all good heavyweight lists would have VK in the top ten, and anyone that doesn't is being illogical and therefore making a bad list, is that right?
     
    McGrain, Mar 13, 2014
    McGrain, Mar 13, 2014
    #36
  7. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Stoppage was fair, controversial part of it is he declined one of if not the biggest purses of his career for a rematch. Look, Louis (via old Schmeling) and Ali (via already disabled via a blind ey) both lost initial matchup's to past prime ATG's. They got a chance to correct the record. Vitali did much better than either of those two, but never got the chance to correct the record. It's a legit point. I still have LL above Vitali.

    And as far as why this is the best era of H2H greatness, just go down a few threads to "lets be real, Vitali Wlad and Lennox would beat any HW in history." I have a quite full argument that has yet to get a comment that isn't dealt with in my own argument.
     
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #37
  8. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :rofl You should do stand-up. Talent like yours is too good to be wasted on a boxing forum.
     
    VG_Addict, Mar 13, 2014
    VG_Addict, Mar 13, 2014
    #38
  9. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    This is the crux of the problem for Klitschko. How can he be rated a top 10 ATG @ HW when he's never held the title?
     
    Nay_Sayer, Mar 13, 2014
    Nay_Sayer, Mar 13, 2014
    #39
  10. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You are a complete fool. You've demonstrated that repeatedly. Era's differ. There are things I like about a whole bunch of sports from earlier eras that I prefer over today. Fighting top contenders is the biggest one for me in HW boxing. But other things are better about today. H2H ability, for instance. Trying to say a number 4 from one era is better than a number 1 or 2 from the modern era IS irrational. There is such a thing as logic that should go into list building. Come back when you realize that.
     
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #40
  11. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    And you should just stop posting entirely. It requires a level of intelligence you've shown is far beyond you.
     
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #41
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol::smooch

    Yes, we completely agree.

    Yeah, but you've already said that this is not a head to head list.

    http://www.boxingforum24.com/showpost.php?p=16069217&postcount=24

    Agree.

    You should read my top 100 all time over at Boxing.com. It's been named definitive by more than one person who realises that, but i'm sure you could explain loads of places where i've gone wrong.

    http://www.boxing.com/the_100_greatest_fighters_of_all_time_part_eight_30_21.html

    The final part was picked up by Deadspin :good

    Anyway, there seems to be quite a lot we agree upon (although you seem to be disagreeing with yourself a fair bit), would you say we should continue this discussion, maybe pin down some details?

    Why (don't mean to be rude, but I think i'm asking for the third time?), why for example do you feel Adamek should be ranked above Eddie Machen?
     
    McGrain, Mar 13, 2014
    McGrain, Mar 13, 2014
    #42
  13. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    andrewa1, Mar 13, 2014
    #43
  14. Bert Cooper

    Bert Cooper Guest

    You forgot...

    Never knocked down, or out.
    2nd oldest HW champ
     
    Bert Cooper, Mar 13, 2014
    Bert Cooper, Mar 13, 2014
    #44
  15. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

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    Nah, it's a little more than that.

    Ask Sam Peters or Corrie Sanders (sorry, you can't ask Corrie anything anymore).

    You don't have to be a genius to conclude that prime Vitali was better h2h than baby brother.

    And while Wlad cracks the bottom of my top 10 and Vitali barely squeaks into my top twenty, if I only considered h2h, the brothers would be reversed.
     
    cuchulain, Mar 13, 2014
    cuchulain, Mar 13, 2014
    #45
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