Why was Foreman allowed to constantly push his opponent?

For the same reason that Ali was allowed to hold excessively; Floyd was allowed to frame with his forearm across a fighter's face: Lennox was allowed to hold, push head down and uppercut, Evan was allowed to headbutt, Ward was allowed to Ward, Tyson was allowed to elbow-follow through on his hooks and attempt to break arms in the clinch.

All fighters bend the rules in the heat of the battle. It is up to the ref to enforce them. The greatest fighters tend to have a fierce desire to win and an even bigger fear of losing - humans are great at finding and then taking short cuts to success - boxers are no different!

 

I don't know the history of pushing rules, but as I said with the Amir Khan ref pushing controversy, once upon a time, I don't personally care if you use judicious pushing and the ref's discretion accounts for it being applied equally as a non-issue by the referee, nor if the ref considers it equally enforceable to call it, as long as you aren't blatantly trying to put your opponent on the canvas. There is a generally accepted kind of pushing and pulling that many fighters have employed with no real penalty, as you cow people in and out of range, and move their guards around, etc.

Then there's just trying to do a take-down, which I'd never allow in any rule book, because it would detract from the sport of boxing and turn it into something different that I don't want to see. Mind, I'm not arguing with you over its legality or whether or not Foreman did it, because he was possibly the best example of someone routinely doing it of the heavyweight champions. He also liked a kidney punch and flirted with the ole meat and two veg. But pretty much everyone had something that they got away with, sometimes crazily blatantly, as Met is talking about.

And it's always been up to the person coming for them to work around the a-hole in the A-side seat. It's not normally fairly applied allowance and it likely never will be. But, with George, I think you also have to account, not just for the star getting the star treatment, but also that fouls like that, which the public often is completely blind to, that aren't considered dirty outside boxing heads, like a headbutt or groin punch are, but which DON'T hurt the action/fan-friendly quality of the fight, are even more likely to be tolerated.

 

Foreman also did another thing if you watch closely---he threw a hard jab to the inside of the shoulder. It was powerful enough to twist the torso's of Frazier and Norton. The guy he didn't try it on was Ali.

 

Yeah, the discussions here when it comes to these grey areas tend to start from an amateur standpoint. Sure there have been very clean fighters like Louis and Patterson, but the fact is that most have their little tricks and that refs in pro boxing mostly allow some physicality that aren't strictly according to the rules.

 

Because it's a dirty sport, that's why. Money talks, star power talks, public's thirst for violence talks. It is a sport kind of like porn is movies - on paper it's similar but not really, and lots of shady stuff is going on behind (and on!) the scenes to satisfy the spectator's primal urges. Actors are not too respected by director,s mostly go for that career if they see no other choice, get many sorts of hurt in the process and die much shorter than average.

Clinching is illegal in most commissions and sanctioning bodies!
Not 'excessive clinching', just clinching. Yet everybody and their mother does it all the time (except Andrew Golota of all people) and almost never get even warned.

Without clinching fights would be much shorter as boxers would gas or get stopped sooner and I guess that's not as profitable.

 

Yep and then there's the issue of some rulesets aren't exactly great for viewing or even allow you to compare fighters cross eras.

For instance, Lord knows that I rate Dempzry's skillset higher than most do, but there was no neutral corner rule for most of his career and being allowed to stand over a man and punch him as soon as he stood, doesn't seem somewhat manly to my mind. However, without that, would he have battered Willard with such legendary punishment?

Even things like medical intervention - there would never be a Hammering Hank wreaking havoc like he did, or a Greb or a Rocco with his nose split so badly doing the things that they did in today's era with doctors and refs protecting the health of a fighter.

The more that fighters are allowed to avoid each other - I only believe that there can only be one world champion in any sport, at any weight - the more that fights are watered down with overly cautious refereeing and match making, the more that boxing will lose audience to MMA and other sports.

As my dad would've said when he was alive, "It's a man's game but men ain't men anymore"

 

Technically cheating but kind of on the borderline acceptable grey zone compared to poking eyes, punching nuts etc.

 

A beautiful post mate. I was going to post similar but of far less substance.

 

Cheers JT,

As an MMA fan and with my training much more MMA and Muay Thai than boxing, it does pain me somewhat to see the way that boxing is going. For pure fitness and stamina, boxing is my go to. In terms of the sport and the conquest and proof of utter manliness, boxing has been allowed to descend into a clown show. All the words and staged dramatics pre fight and the hugging, kissing and adoration post fight - reminds me of WWF. How long before a fighter comes running to the ring like The Ultimate Warrior aye?

 

I hear your pain my friend.

 

Patterson is such a good role model of what a champ should be. Humble, unassuming, blessed handspeed and power and just a good guy from what I can tell.

If Cus has his way, Floyd could've avoided Sonny indefinitely. To lose to him in the manner he did and still go on to have a decent twilight of a career is commendable.

 

Why did Frank Bruno get away with so many rabbit punches? Why wasn’t Mike Tyson DQ’d for trying to break opponents’ arms in arm-bar type clinches? Why do some guys get warned for using the extended left arm in the opponent’s face as a measuring stick while others (Holmes, Hearns) do not?

Because no two fighters are alike, no two fights are alike and no two refs are alike.

I’m not sure I can find an actual rulebook that says pushing is illegal.

Here’s a link to the codified rules of boxing issued by the Association of Boxing Comissions, I think first put out in the 1990s. Before the ABC, in the U.S. various jurisdictions had different rules governing various facets of the game — how to score, who scores (does the ref also score for instance), glove sizes for weight divisions (somewhere around middleweight it was murky whether 10 ounces or 8 should be used), etc.

Maybe I missed it, but I don’t see pushing in there. A lot of people whine about holding but it’s excessive holding that’s usually not allowed, and that’s up to the ref to decide.

https://www.abcboxing.com/ABC_REFEREE_GUIDELINES.pdf

What is universal to all rulesets is that the referee is the sole arbiter. It’s up to the ref to decide (a) if something is an infraction, (b) if it was accidental or on purpose, (c) even if it is technically illegal (or borderline), whether warnings and point deductions are merited.

Some boxing folks (OP perhaps being one of them) seem to think boxing would be a more enjoyable sport if the referee came in and warned at the first slight infraction and took 10-20 points away during a fight. Others want the fighters to decide it and not an over-officious referee.

To them, I say there’s a form of boxing that seems to fit how they want it to be — amateur boxing. It’s a ridiculously (IMO) stop-start way to officiate boxing where the ref is often the FIRST GUY in the ring rather than the third guy — fights are often ended in early DQs for minor infractions or the decision decided by point deductions. If that’s what you want boxing to be, it exists so by all means become an amateur boxing fan.

But paying customers want action. They want a FIGHT, not a sanitized version of ‘let’s see who can best not cross arbitrary rules, three clinches and it’s a double-DQ.’ Imagine a paying customer investing good money in a ringside seat, maybe incurring travel costs like flight and a hotel, to go see a big fight only to have it end in a DQ in the third round for a series of what amount to minor infractions or having so many point deductions that the fighter who was clearly superior loses because he landed four punches right on the beltline that had little to no effect on the guy who got hit. You’d riot if it was you.

Some fights can be impossible to officiate. Who initiated a clinch when both guys came together and hugged each other? One guy barrels in head-first and the other guy ducks his head and they clash … who caused the headbutt? (If it’s not intentional, it shouldn’t matter … it’s a thing that happens sometimes).

Should football games have 400 yards in penalties because of holding? It happens every play. Should NBA stars foul out because of minor contact like a hand-check, and we get to watch a free-throw shooting contest? Who pays to see that?

When I see these things discussed on here, it almost always comes down to ‘my guy lost and the other guy was a dirty fighter.’ But point out that their guy also could have been penalized and they don’t seem to care … they just want a different outcome.

Why do some poople get upset about holding, yet get upset at a guy who is hurt for … NOT holding when he gets KO’d, lol.

 

Foreman literally fought to his "Strength". Meaning he was taught
to use his greatest attribute. His physicality.
"Doc" Broadus, Archie Moore, and Dick Sadler turned a relatively
slow fisted, unsophisticated , brute of a human being into one
of the most devastating heavyweight champs in boxing history.
Yes Foreman "pushed" his opponents, He also "pulled them"
and "turned" them, all for his advantage.
It's up to the referee to determine how close he's going to
call a fight as far as borderline tactic are concerned.
Foreman was never disqualified in over 70 pro fights.
It's up to the opponent to adjust and find away to counter
borderline tactics. As Ali did.
All ATG'S had some borderline tactics in their repertoire.
After all, it's a fight. Some were more noticeable than others.
It's was easier to see Foreman pushing and pulling opponents
off balance , than Holmes sticking his thumb into their eyes
when he jabbed. Almost all of Holmes opponents complained about
that with Holmes.....

 

Here and there he did get called on it. I recall the ref warning him for it multiple times when he fought Qawi. Refs let a lot of little things that are only moderately dirty (like pushing, holding, etc) fly. In the realm of what some fighters get away with, Foreman's pushing was nothing. Why was Lennox Lewis allowed to grab guys behind the head, then pull them directly down into an uppercut? Why was Holyfield allowed to purposely lead with his head to cause headbutts?