Why was Foreman allowed to constantly push his opponent?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MismatchHypejob, Sep 16, 2023.

  1. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    Apr 3, 2012
    It was awful in the Qawi fight.
  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    I guess it's already been said - but Foreman didn't necessarily get away with pushing - in so far as he was warned against doing same in several fights during his career.

    What helped him get away with it mainly was the fact he that he was a KO artist who ended most of his fights in quick time. If he was doing it persistently over a protracted number of rounds it would've been far more conspicuous.

    As it was, George could cop a warning or two before ending matters shortly thereafter, so no time to actually enforce a points deduction.

    I think it was against Boone Kirkman, Foreman came out of his corner, raced across and literally pushed Kirkman to the canvas. No punch thrown, no hint of any intention to throw a punch - just came and gave Boone the big shove. Lol.
    Greg Price99 likes this.
  3. Salty Dog

    Salty Dog i got the guts, but the guts need fuel Full Member

    Sep 5, 2008
    Because even the most intrepid referee feared the wrath of Big George. ;)
    Jackomano and Pugguy like this.
  4. Lobothemainman

    Lobothemainman New Member Full Member

    Oct 16, 2021
    Holmes holding his extended arm out every fight is another good one.
    Pugguy likes this.
  5. PRW94

    PRW94 Active Member Full Member

    Nov 26, 2020
    Because it's professional boxing, a physical and brutal sport, and not a garden party.

    I've never had a problem with Foreman in Kingston. What was he supposed to do, just let Frazier get inside on him? Over the years I think a lot of the guff on that has come from Frazier fans who are desperate to find a scenario by which he could've won that fight, when my .02 is that no version of Joe Frazier, not FOTC or equipped with a tire iron, beats prime Foreman because there's never been an opponent more physically or stylistically made for prime Foreman than Frazier.
    ThatOne likes this.
  6. Rollin

    Rollin Well-Known Member Full Member

    Nov 17, 2021
    He was warned. He did not care. He was a knockout artist.

    Ali-Frazier II and Klitschko-Povetkin are distasteful clinch shows, and I far it far less palatable.
  7. META5

    META5 Active Member Full Member

    Jun 28, 2005
    Yep, Hearns liked to stiff arm and Ali did so too at times.

    Drago was partial to a bit of stiff arming too but I suppose when fighting during the cold war and you don't have a burning heart, home court advantage is what it is. Everybody can change!
    Pugguy likes this.
  8. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    Can you link a source that says it’s a foul for a fighter to extend his arm out?

    I seem to remember Holmes getting warned to close his glove while doing this (like an open palm on the head of his opponent) and … he complied. But holding your arm straight out with a closed fist is in no way a foul in boxing.
    Contro and greynotsoold like this.
  9. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    I’m on board with boxing not being a garden party but perhaps the focus should be on how some fighters do get away with more stuff than others.

    Ironically, the fighters who need them the least, often get away with the most fouls - because the fouls are embedded in otherwise, legit and more notably skilful executions.

    The less skilful guys might commit the same number of fouls absolute but don’t offer a lot else otherwise - so their fouls might appear more flagrant and unacceptable.

    IIRC, vs Foreman, Jimmy Young used a number of tactics that weren’t entirely legit - but he made a song and dance when Foreman got rough with him as to make Foreman’s breaches more noticeable.

    For one, Young held the back of Foreman’s head quite a few times - whenever Foreman did same, Young reacted histrionically or at least enough to advertise his dissatisfaction to the ref.

    Perhaps an unfair assessment but Young, as good a boxer as he was, sometimes came across as a bit of a whiner, often pleading that it was HE who was hard done by.
    JohnThomas1 likes this.
  10. greynotsoold

    greynotsoold Boxing Addict Full Member

    Aug 17, 2011
    It becomes a foul when you land a punch while doing so- the idea being that you are holding his head there while you hit him. Technically you aren't supposed to be touching him with one hand while hitting him with the other.
    Alexis Arguello was a notoriously clean fighter but he did something similar. You throw a right hand and the other guy gets under it, you lay your arm across his back to hold him in place so you can throw a hook to his body. Camacho did the same thing when he stopped John Montes; Montes got under the Camacho jab so Hector laid that arm across his shoulders and held him there to land a left uppercut.
    Jackomano likes this.
  11. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    I’ve never seen that in any rulebook.

    HOLDING and hitting is a foul, not making contact and hitting.

    There’s nothing in the rulebook against measuring, which is mostly what Holmes (and many others) did, and usually that didn’t involve making contact.

    And a slightly different thing that’s not a foul, someone can have their left hand tied up in a clinch and the ref will instruct the guys to ‘punch and get out.’ You can use your free hand if the other is tied up, which would seem to fall under your definition of a foul (or maybe I’m misunderstanding you).
    greynotsoold likes this.
  12. Salty Dog

    Salty Dog i got the guts, but the guts need fuel Full Member

    Sep 5, 2008
    So much this. Yes. My favorite guys were in no way without sin, but when they bent or broke the rules it was to enable offense. To increase the violence or end the fight it. Not to hide from it.
  13. Mike_b

    Mike_b Well-Known Member Full Member

    Jul 9, 2020
    On point. Just like the Judah Cotto bout. Cotto kept low blowing. The ref kept telling Judah not to retaliate. He was a gentleman about it. If he threw low blows back at Miguel, it would've been warranted. Some trainers/ fighters believe in the adage "if he hits you low, hit him back low harder." After the fight Zab confessed the ball shots made him drained. And he never got his rematch in Puerto Rico.
    Bokaj likes this.
  14. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Jun 26, 2009
    True story. I had a guy who was fighting a real roughhouser back in the day. The opponent butted him very deliberately (and was warned) in the first round and in the second came straight in with his head (but was throwing a wide hook so at least it didn’t look as deliberate that time) and my guy got cut pretty bad and the ref kind of let it go.

    In the third round he butted again, twice, raising his head up in a snapping motion in clinches. My guy came back to the corner and had completely lost his composure. He kept complaining about the butting.

    I told him to look me in the eye and he did. I said, ‘Are you willing to go through hell to win this fight?’ And he said yes. And I said, ‘Good, now take him with you and see if he is. The ref isn’t going to do anything about it, so next time he butts you I want you to uppercut him in the nuts as hard as you can. See how rough he wants to play. Can you do that?’ He grinned and said yes.

    Probably 15 seconds into the next round the guy came barreling in head-first and butted my guy in the mouth and my guy ripped a right uppercut between his legs. He went down. The ref took a point away and said if it happened again he was going to DQ my guy, and gave the guy his 5 minutes rest. He took all of it. When it resumed they went to war. With about 20 or 30 seconds left in the round my guy put him down with a right hand/left hook and he was counted out.

    It’s a fight. But if you really wanna play, then get in the sandbox. You want to fight dirty, be ready to get the same back.
    Mike_b and Bokaj like this.
  15. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    Interesting point.

    I’m sure I’ve seen refs warn fighters for keeping their arm outstretched only for the purpose of both keeping their opponent at bay and to measure them for a punch.

    Perhaps said refs weren’t deferring to a clear rule written in black and white - but a maintained, outstretched arm isn’t a punch so perhaps that’s where they draw the line on it.

    Boxers like Liston and Monzon could dignify their left hands as reasonably defined jabs but leave the arm outstretched for a sec or two after throwing their punch to hold off an opponent, obscure their vision and to allow for a follow up punch with the other hand.

    Kostya Tszyu is one of my favourite fighters but he often used his left for nothing more than to hold his opponent off and measure them for his right hand. There was no pretence of his outstretched left being any form of a left jab.

    It would be good if the most reliable rules out there could be stickied/pinned in the Classic Forum for convenient ongoing reference.
    Saintpat likes this.