Why was Greb ranked as no.1 so late?

Excellent post

 

I don't suggest Greb was a Zivic or a Galento and my impression of Norfolk is that he was a dirty fighter.I just don't see Greb as being Mr Squeaky clean.Undeniably great though.

 

I dont think many fighters are squeaky clean. Almost every fighter out there angles for an edge somewhere whether its on the scales, with the officials, in contract negotiations, or with ring tactics. I can think of very few who dont.

So, I find it a bit disengenuous when a guy who is smaller, older, blind in one eye, etc etc is going up against a bigger, younger, stronger, fresher housefighter who has the deck stacked in his favor with the fans, officials, and press, the smaller old guy wins, and then the bigger younger guy whines about dirty tactics (which isnt even supported by the sources). The bottom line is that guys like Tunney who whined about Greb's tactics would have preferred he had his arms tied behind his back when he was fighting them.

 

I wanted to put together a little list of examples that in some areas Greb had always been though of as one of the greatest
fighters in history and that his
Joe Williams writing in 1924 picked Greb as the greatest middleweight of all time. Williams started out in Cleveland and had
actually seen Greb fight as an amateur in Cleveland before later becoming a syndicated columnist.
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S08uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=e9gFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5186%2C2295160[/url]
Mickey Walker in 1949 rated Greb the greatest fighter of all time
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ttZaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=R2oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1782%2C3721058[/url]
Billy Prince, writing for the Bridgeport Herald in 1950 rated Greb the greatest MW of all time
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Z9UyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yQAGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4706%2C7494771[/url]
In his March 29, 1929 syndicated column Grantland Rice called Greb the best "little good man" I ever saw.
In the February 20, 1926 issue of Colliers Rice wrote an article about Greb titled "The King of all the Marvels" in which Rice
literally gushes about Greb's faculties as a fighter.
In his March 5, 1936 article Rice called Greb the fastest fighter he had ever seen and said that Joe Louis would have as
difficult a time with him as anyone. Teddy Hayes, Dempsey's old trainer is quoted as agreeing with this assessment.
In 1944 Grantland Rice called Greb the greatest fighter pound for pound he had ever seen (I believe this is before that title
was supposedly made up for SRR)
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Z9UyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yQAGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4706%2C7494771[/url]
Rice continually rated Greb above Robinson. Here is just one example:
[url]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=EJ8yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5ekFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6118%2C740942[/url]
Gene Tunney often called him one of the greatest if not the greatest fighters to ever live. There are too many sources to even
cite this.
In the Pittsburgh Press of January 24, 1924 Cuddy DeMarco rated Greb the greatest fighter he ever saw.
In the February 7, 1958 edition of the Binghamton Press John Fox called Greb the greatest fighter ever. He prefaced this by
saying that if Robinson won the upcoming Basilio fight (which he did) people would be once again calling him the greatest
fighter ever. "Not me..." He begins.
In the November 17, 1948 issue of the Winnipeg Free Press Gene Tunney is quoted as saying that greb is possibly the greatest
fighter pound for pound he has ever seen.
In the December 30, 1937 issue of the Lethbridge Heral Soldier Jones rated Greb the greatest fighter of all.
In the March 17, 1941 issue of the New York post Jack Kearns stated that Greb was a sure shot to beat Dempsey if he had been
"Sucker enough" to accept the match.
In the August 1929 issue of the Geneva Times Maxie Rosenbloom says Greb gave him the toughest fight he ever had and admits
that Greb could have knocked him out if he wanted. I have another quote by Rosenbloom where he calls Greb the greatest fighter
ever but I cant find it and if I remember its just a clipping without a date or source name to cite. These are rare moments of
candor from Rosenbloom who more often tried to pass off the myth that he beat Greb.
In the July 12, 1951 issue of the Cumberland Evening Times Charles Einstein picked Greb to beat Rocky Marciano and Rex Layne
in a mythical matchup.
In the May 24, 1955 issue of the same paper Tunney picked Greb to beat Marciano saying Marciano wouldnt lay a glove on him.
In the september 9, 1929 issue of the Montana Standard Tommy Loughran rated Greb the greatest fighter he ever fought
In the November 14, 1951 issue of the Troy Times Record veteran fight manager Tom Walsh ranked Greb as the greatest fighter
pound for pound that he had ever seen.
In the November 4, 1947 issue of the Tucson Daily Citizen Jimmy Slattery credits Greb with giving him his toughest fight.
In the February 13 1951 issue of the Cumberland News C.V. Burns calls Greb the greatest middleweight ever.
In the May 13, 1951 issue of the Salt Lake Tribune veteran fight handler Babe Culnan rated Greb the greatest fighter ever
pound for pound.
In Chuck Wiggins obituary in May 1942 he is quoted as always saying Greb was "the greatest I ever met"
In the December 28, 1952 issue of the Cumberland Times Fay Keiser calls Greb the greatest middleweight and says he would have
"beat the life out of Conn"
In the November 8, 1953 issue of Knockout Jimmy McLarnin calls Harry Greb the greatest fighter he ever saw. McLarnin had
fought on one of Greb's undercards and spent the rest of his life talking about how great Greb was.
On May 29, 1941 (the newspaper this is from is cut off) Bill Corum called Greb one of the greatest fist fighting men of them
all
On September 4, 1932 writing for the Universal News Service Ed W. Smith, legendary referee and newspaper reporter, wrote how
Dempsey could not beat Greb. Keep in mind that Smith was closely associated with both of these guys.
In the 1951/52 Weekly Sporting Review Xmas and New Year Annual E. G. Hammon lauds Greb as one of the greatest middleweights of
all time.
Red Mason, Greb's former manager called Greb the greatest fighter of his weight that ever lived. Maybe a biased opinion but
Mason was as expert on boxing as it got.
John McGarvey, matchmaker for Motor Square Garden ranked Greb with greatest middleweights of all time
Patsy Scanlon, lightweight boxer, ranked Greb as greater than Dempsey at his best.
James J. Long of the Pittsburgh Sun ranked him as one of the most outsanding boxers of all time.
E. W. Dickerson, longtime boxing expert for the Grand Rapids Herald called Greb "The greatest boxer of his weight and inches
the ring has ever known."
George Barton, one of the most respected boxing experts in the country for decades, called Greb "one of the best fighters of
his weight that the game ever produced" and stated it would be "a long time before we will see his equal, all around ability
considered."
George Engel, another of Greb's managers who ended on bad terms with Greb called him one of the greatest fighters the world
has ever known
Jack Farrell, writing on October 31, 1926 (the newspaper is "the News" but I dont have where its from) called Greb "one of the
greatest in the game" and said his record was probably one of the greatest ever compiled.


I could literally keep going and dig through my files from Greb's lifetime when contemporaries rated him as highly but frankly Im wore out. I think the point is that in places Greb was always rated as one of the all time best.

 

Nat Fleischer's top ten, all-time middleweight rankings which appeared in some publications during the 1960s and 1970s were as follows:

1. Stanley Ketchell
2. Tommy Ryan
3. Harry Greb
4. Mickey Walker
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Frank Klaus
7. Billy Papke
8. Les Darcy
9. Mike Gibbons
10. Jeff Smith

Note- Fleischer did give Greb a high ranking on the list even though he felt that Ketchell was the greatest. However, Fleischer seemed to think the greatest pre-World War I fighters were the cat's meow regardless of the weight class.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I might be wrong, but it seems that back then people didn't give much credit to record and they went more on who they tought looked better, probably the reason Dempsey was that highly regarded by people from those days (because say what you want, Dempsey looks like a great destroyer on film)

 

Thank you, sir. This is very helpful in putting how Greb was seen in his day and beyond.

 

It took Joe Louis a while to get where he was. In his day, and 10 years after he treated, he was viewed as a top 4-6 type of talent. This tells me the people who saw Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey felt they were better.

Over 60 years have past since Louis last fought. Now Louis is viewed as top 1-4 by most. But Louis is a hero, and fans tend to over rated punchers scoring big time KO's on film. I think that had something to do with his upward ranking, just like I think lack of film on past great made many forget about them.

With Greb there is no film. So all you can go on is his record, and beating hall of famers who were on film. Is he a little over rated? Maybe. With his lack of punching power, I think he outworked and out maneuvered most.

He could have had a slapping style like Rosebloom, but with more skills, speed and aggression. No doubt Greb had an all time chin, and stamina.

 

While this is true, Fleischer did say in the 1960's that Eder Jorfe was as good an any bantam he has seen. This to me says he wasn't always biased toward the past.

 

Louis was viewed as a top atg Heavyweight while he was champ.You only have to read the articles by Red Smith, Jimmy Cannon and others to appreciate that.

Dempsey was viewed as better until around the 1960's when those that had seen his rise to the title began to die off. Dempsey was seen as
the better fighter when Marciano was the champion.

Nobody saw much of the any of the champs from the 20's 30's, and 40's unless they went to the fights or the cinema.

 

Thanks for going to the trouble with this post...very informative. Cheers.

 

Tunney wanted another fight with Greb, Greb declined saying Tunney was " too big " .

As for Greb being a dirty fighter, some felt he a little dirty Klompton. Were they all on an agenda, or might there be some truth to it?

IMO, The very active fighters attacking fighter with good speed tend to get away with fouls because they are so busy making the fight. It can be difficult to spot a foul, or tell if they did it un-purpose or not.

What is known is Greb would target multiple areas. I forget who said it, but one writer said if the other guy lifted his foot off the canvas, Greb would hit him in the heel. Something like that.

I'm sure you are going to point out that Greb was never DQ'd. Neither was Zivic, and he sure knew how to foul.

 

This is totally untrue. In January of 1926 Tunney was in Miami and promoters there were interested in staging a match with him. They approached Greb and Greb agreed to the fight. Immediately after Greb agreed Tunney opted instead to face Young Stribling, a much easier proposition. Shortly thereafter Tunney was fast tracked by Tex Rickard to face Dempsey and the fall and as a result chose not to take any chances and cancelled the Stribling fight in order to sit on the shelf until Dempsey.

Ive already addressed this, as you well know. I never said Greb never used dirty tactics. I said his reputation was greatly exaggerated.

Greb was DQ'd but who cares about the facts when you are trolling and beating a dead horse. This has been gone over to death on this topic post alone.

 

I thought I’d revive this as I mentioned it on another thread and managed to search it down in the archives.

It’s one of the most interesting discussion on this forum in my time here.

I quoted the post by Nightcrawler because it more or less sums up the conundrum.

While Klompton did cite historical sources and quotes saying Greb was one of the best, it’s also clear that if you look at ATG ratings of, say, the 1950s and ‘60s and ‘70s and beyond that he isn’t as highly rated as he is now.

Klompton will try to convince you it’s because Harry didn’t pay off all the New York writers, but I don’t see how an historian decades later would know whether Greb did or didn’t pay off the New York press, whether other fighters did so or give a rat’s behind if they did know it.

That theory simply doesn’t explain Greb’s esteem has risen so much higher in the last decade or two whereas he was, while not exactly an afterthought, a bit of a forgotten man for a big chunk of boxing history.

So I figured the knowing coves of today’s Classic might have thoughts on the subject.

 

I remember back in 1994 when I was just starting to buy boxing mags, they did a division-by-division top 5 and this is how Greb was rated:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Harry Greb
4. Stanley Ketchel
5. Marvin Hagler

At the time I took these things as gospel (magazines had a much bigger impact on shaping opinion back then than they do today, for obvious reasons) but it was the first time I heard about Greb. I'm not sure if this was at the beginning of a Greb revival or he had already been there for a while in contemporary boxing writers' minds but these things do go in cycles, I'm sure.