Why was Leonard vs Lalonde for World Titles at TWO different weights?

The criticism of Leonard is also related to his boxing career though. It's not as if he's regularly called out as a wife beater whereas even casual fans know what kind of men Monzon and LaMotta were.

Everything else is just swings and roundabouts. There are plenty here and elsewhere who are glass half full on Leonard. Those who go on about Leonard's handicaps going into fights, but won't have that Hagler and Duran were in anything less than pristine form and condition when he beat them. Or that the outcomes of some of his biggest fights were close and/or controversial. His pre-fight prima donna demands are dismissed, but if these things were so unimportant, why was he demanding them in the first place? Leonard himself openly brags about the shenanigans surrounding the Duran and Hagler fights.

Case in point. Terry Norris was a 3-1 underdog going into the Leonard bout and hardly anyone was picking Norris to win that one, so is it just forum revisionism to say Leonard was shot all along?

 

Surely, though, the dislike for Leonard is more to do with boxing-related stuff then.

 

Nearly everyone has things that are admirable and detestable about them to varying degrees.

People are too quic to vilify or deify people

 

Exactly. It's not Leonard's "personality" that gets the criticism. People do see him as an egomaniac and a narcissisist and a fake on screen, but boxing - and life in general - is full of those types.

The criticisms of Leonard are usually boxing-related. The specific criticisms usually revolve around him dictating the terms and times of his fights to such an extent that people wonder whether the level of orchestration of his career effects his legacy of greatness.

I tend to agree with some and disagree with some of the specific charges against him. Mostly boxing-related.

 

Who denies that the Hagler fight was close?

And that Leonard got a rematch within five months against Duran and a big ring against Hagler are just silly reasons for all the hate he gets imo. As is him being “phony“. And absolutely no focus at all the great fights he gave us. Yes, he beat your favorites. Move on.

 

There's plenty about him being a phony media darling, and that's personal.

Then there's also a major hung up on some pretty trivial things he managed to negotiate against Hagler and Duran, so that's more boxing related, yes, but woefully out of proportion imo.

 

Yes, but Howard Cosell, Larry Merchant, Ferdie Pacheco and others gets a ton of hate for being phony too. Bert Sugar was often on boxing TV shows and he gets tons of hate for being phony.
Leonard projected himself as a professional media personality through the media, and worked in the media, beyond what other boxers did, and is therefore in the same firing line as everyone else on television.
It's personal but that's the nature of television. Viewers tune in and bring TV personalities into their living rooms and then reserve the right to like or dislike them.

I agree.
Some of it, most of it, is taken well out of proportion.
Hagler didn't have to take that fight at all anyway, so it seems crazy to protest Leonard's terms. Hagler agreed, end of story.

 

During my many years here I haven`t seen “tons of hate" directed at Cosell et al, and what I have seen have been directed at them in their role as commentators..

I truly think Leonard is a special case in being hated on.

 

Ray Leonard has plenty of outspoken fans on here.

Criticism of Leonard is usually boxing-related and some of it is to do with his public personality as either a boxing commentator or a calculated media-trained athlete, roles he combined.
I don't think he gets too much dislike beyond that. He generally gets criticized for his professional roles.
He's not the only one who gets called up on his "personality" in this regard. Many of them do and the more they are in the spotlight the more they are exposed to it. Leonard was in the spotlight and was savvy at grabbing and directing that spotlight on himself under his terms.

The fact that you remembered Marvin Hagler as a "wife beater" but had never heard of Leonard's publicized (and allegedly serial) wife-beating suggests that Leonard isn't in fact being criticized for everything under the sun.
No one's going about how he treated his wife or how he beat her up in front of his son or whatever.
Generally he's being criticized for how he conducted his boxing career and the commercialism and publicity around it.

 

My criticism of Leonard is he only had 40 fights and he used his popularity to go in and out of retirement.. He got what he wanted in an instant rematch with Duran and he made Tommy wait 8 years .. that's complete BS.. He wasn't the confident fighter that everyone makes him out be in that he only had 40 fights and that is far from what Duran, Hearns, and Hagler accomplished as far as Activity goes and wanting to keep fighting the best .. I just wasn't buying the **** SRL was shoveling

 

Just look around in the threads currently on Leonard. How he was "phony" and "tricked" him and him constantly comes up, taken together with how much one hates and can't stand Leonard. Just in a thread about the decision in a close fight (the one about Hagler-Leonard), Classic turns into General about how much one loathes Leonard. I'd say that there's nothing like that here about any other fighter. Not even close.

Sure, people critisise Holmes for the last years of his reign - Zale and Lesnevich have gotten similar stick. And Dempsey is an ongoing debate, as is Johnson. But I don't at all see the same naked hatred and contempt in general, or focus on how they were as persons. When it happens it's more of the odd one out.

And as you say, the dislike of Leonard it's very much centered around his media persona. I can't see why that is so much of a big deal. Yes, he cultivated a nice guy image to get a bigger audience. So what? For what it's worth, he's been very open about it and that he was very different, not at all nice, guy in private. What are we, 14-year olds that can't accept that someone cultivates a public image in order to earn more money?

And, yes, he was a shrewd negotiator. But Duran a was tough negotiator against Buchanan (and probably others) about a rematch, without anyone except Ken being very concerned about it. Dempsey made demands about a 10-round limit against Tunney - where is the contempt for that? Do people really think that other fighters never used their bargaining positions?

I personally don't like catch weights when titles are involved, but it's not the end of the world either. And no one ever viewed Leonard as a legit SHW/LHW champion. Silly thing, but not much more than that.

The frothing at the mouth that goes on concerning these things just boggles my mind. That's all.

 

Leonard gets widely touted as a top 5 or top 10 all-time great in these parts, so clearly someone is focusing on the positive aspects of his career.

This thread was about his fight with Donny Lalonde, which saw Leonard at the height of his prima donna antics, so of course he's going to get some flak. Do you think the criticisms levelled against Leonard for this fight are unfair? Start a thread on Leonard's best win against Hearns and I'd expect a lot less criticism.

I just don't see the criticism of Leonard for things he did in his career as any worse than any other fighter gets. Every fighter gets their fair share of abuse. Start a topic on Rocky Marciano and see how long it takes for someone to say he only fought bums and old men and ducked Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston.

 

I wouldn't agree with "widely", but I do think he's fairly ranked generally (most often outside the top 10). It's all the "I can't stand him, he's such a ****ing *******", I'm on about.

I think the criticism is over the top, yes, but there is actually a current thread about his arguably greatest win (Hagler) and the OP and many other posts in that one revolves around how much they dislike SRL, so you shouldn't really expect a lot less criticism even when it's about the great things he did.

During my 11 years here I have literally never seen anyone say Rocky ducked Floyd and Sonny. The vast majority think he cleaned out his era and retired at a good time. Some do think he ducked Valdes, but that doesn't make them call him a scumbag.

I make the same point over and over again, but it doesn't seem to stick with everyone: Yes, many ATGs get their careers scrutinized and, yes, there are things to critisise about Leonard's career as well, but he receives a level of hate for perceived shortcomings no other fighter gets here, not even Ali, and it's for things outside the ring (which is rare) as well as inside the ring.

 

This is it ,plain and simple .As usual ,good old Ray got his own way ..

 

Leonard was a snake in the grass. Look at the way he treated Donald Curry. To me he is Sacharin Ray Leonard. One complete FAKE!!