Why were "small" men able to dominate the HW division?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by tinman, Mar 23, 2015.


  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,673
    7,636
    Dec 31, 2009
    That is a worthy consideration and yet there is les evidence of heavyweights getting bigger after the cease of the 20 round duration than there is for the 15 rounders being cut to 12.

    What if the endurance factor was phased out to suit training theories and styles of fighting from newer coaches coming into boxing? There is evidence that the size and spurt fighting trend has literally erased the leaner fighters existing as they did in times of old.
     
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,558
    Nov 24, 2005
    The reduction from 20 rounds to 15 rounds happened in the 1930s, I think.

    I'm not sure the difference in distances, 25, 20, 15 or 12, would change the training of championship quality fighters at least.
    You'd expect all of them to try to maximize their stamina.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,362
    26,779
    Feb 15, 2006
    There is no denying that a number of new training options became available, around the time that 15 round fights were being phased out.

    I get the idea, that it was the certain knowledge that the fifteen round distance was gone for good, that caused trainers to fully commit to these options.

    When the 20 round distance was phased out, we perhaps started to see a more multifaceted training approach, that wasn't all built around roadwork.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,673
    7,636
    Dec 31, 2009
    I'm not sure the reduction in rounds effected the endurance aspect or traditional training methods. I think the traditional training methods proberbly stayed the same for a very long time with the fighters themselves adjusting the tempo to suit the rounds required on the night.

    Endurance proberbly was less focussed upon once it was decided that it was achievable to overcome a greater sustained pace with short bursts of extra power emphasizing a size advantage?
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,210
    46,462
    Mar 21, 2007
    Have you seen any evidence of this?
     
  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,673
    7,636
    Dec 31, 2009
    yes, it coincided with each other. I'm not sure if it was the reason why it happened, but I think that is when most changes to the division began to happen.



    Perhaps or Maybe a generation of old guys died off around the time new guys from other sports were offering something new for younger trainers to consider.

    I think training developed until it became kind of uniform sports specific boxing training. And it stayed that way for a very long time until attitudes changed and new science could be taken on board. Programs became more tailored to the individual.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,673
    7,636
    Dec 31, 2009
    Yes I read Joe Fraziers training book. There was a lot of traditional stuff in it. I will try and sort it out for some quotes.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,210
    46,462
    Mar 21, 2007
    No: there's traditional stuff in every training book.

    I'm asking if you've seen any evidence for this:

    "I'm not sure the reduction in rounds effected the endurance aspect or traditional training methods. I think the traditional training methods proberbly stayed the same for a very long time with the fighters themselves adjusting the tempo to suit the rounds required on the night."

    Evidence for reduction in rounds not affecting training methods. Have you seen any evidence for that? For example, have you done comparisons of say, Sullivan era training routines with that of Ezzard Charles or Josey Joe Walcott?

    Or that of Greg Page with that of Rid**** Bowe?

    Your post is littered with "I think" and "i'm not sure" - i'm just checking, this is just an opinion you have, not something you're saying you've researched?
     
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,673
    7,636
    Dec 31, 2009
    I am sure I have a magazine from 1961 detailing training "throughout the years" that I could get out if you want something specific but I don't think it will prove anything concrete about fighters getting bigger when the distance was cut. Researching this subject could be quite easy but I don't think we need to find "evidence" because the evidence could be the fights themselves and the shape and size of the evolution of the HW division. I don't think there is an answer. I'm just interested to hear what ideas we have about how smaller heavyweights dont dominate like they used to. If the concentration in strength and mass has reduced the older neccesity of leaner endurance suited heavyweights at championship level. It can't be as simple as "big guys became universally better overnight". It could just be that training and conditioning suited bigger men as time went on?
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,210
    46,462
    Mar 21, 2007
    I don't think so either.

    Surely that's just an observation? Surely if you look and see bigger heavyweights it's not reasonable to deduce that training has changed?

    For example, where a lot of good research has been done is the increase in average height of the European male. Average British men are four inches taller than they were in 1914 and, according to joint research done by The University of Australia and the University of Es***, there was huge growth in the average British male between 1900 and 1915. That's unproven though, and the generally accepted figure is 4-5 inches.

    In other words, men have grown, considerably during the last century; we've got bigger, faster than at any other time since we became humans.

    I'd suggest that this is the biggest factor of all in constituting bigger boxers; bigger people.

    In addition to a natural size increase, we've had the introduction of the cruiserweight division which very specifically gets Dempsey sized fighters. You also have bigger fighters fighting at heavyweight which makes it much harder for smaller fighters to dominate.

    This last point is the most important. Little guys are now fighting very big guys every time they fight. That's very very difficult to do.
     
  11. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,850
    238
    Feb 19, 2012
  12. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

    59,960
    43,456
    Feb 11, 2005