Why weren't old time Boxers punch drunk?

Yes, you can see it from the very first interview he did that he wasn’t.

 

There have been plenty of pre-1950s boxers who came down with brain damage or some type of dementia. Sometimes it was noticeable several decades after their boxing careers ended. But if such former boxers did have a noticeable form of dementia in their 60s, it was earlier than people in the general population usually come down with it. It also appears that former boxers are more likely to come down with a form of dementia than the general population.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Boy, this is news to me. Your sample is very small, and includes only the elite boxers. I would bet that among the long-time journeymen fighters from any era that a high percentage, 80% or 90% at least, experience some symptoms of brain damage. I know for sure that Moore, Louis, and Robinson did suffer from dementia before they died. I don't know about Pep one way or the other. LaMotta really slowed down on his speech at the end, but he was pretty old. Both Basilio and Fullmer spoke intelligently in their 70s but very slowly the last time I saw them at Canastota. I would say prematurely so for other men their age without dementia.

Boxing fans tend to romanticize their one-on-one experiences of talking in person with former fighters, but in my experience if you look them over carefully, ALMOST ALL OF THEM have some type of disability related to their boxing careers.

 

A lot of them did have serious brain damage, but there was less documentary evidence of that damage. While in 2018 any fan can see videos of Evander Holyfield and an obese Riddick Bowe sharing fight stories in a gym, with both virtually incoherent, or film of Terry Norris or Meldrick Taylor basically paralyzed by pugilistic dementia, we don't have comparable footage of old school fighters lost in the fog of punch drunkenness.

The famous television piece profiling Jerry Quarry's life in a near vegetative state was an early look into the ghastly toll some boxers pay for their craft. It was one of the first main stream exposures of punch drunkeness and it remains a harrowing thing to watch. We do have anecdotes of guys like Maxie Rosembloom and Robinson having major memory loss problems. But these were probably minimized as a type of boxing 'omerta'.

If you don't believe me that old school boxers also had trauma induced dementia, just consider the number of fighters from that era that had some form of mental illness, which we know is a concurrent, and sometimes antecedent symptom of pugilistic dementia:

* The famously affable 'Smiling' Billy Papke turned introverted and sullen in retirement, eventually killing his wife in a fit of unfounded jealousy, then shooting himself to death.
* Terry McGovern's post-retirement life is one of the most heartbreaking. He spent years living in what was basically a nonstop nervous breakdown, roaming the street like a lunatic, with multiple psychiatric confinements (definitely NOT a good time in that era, sadly)
* Simoultaneously afflicted with tuberculosis, 'Nonpariel' Jack Dempsey had mood swings and had auditory hallucinations in his final months. He also smelled things that weren't there.
* Hurricaine Jackson, who absorbed damage like a sponge, became increasingly unhinged in his behavior as the beating mounted.
* Rivals Battling Nelson and Ad Wolgast were both in terrible shape psychologically in their later years. There's an unforgettable story about how Nelson was confined to psychiatric care in a sanitarium. The staff reported that Nelson kept to a daily exercise routine, excitedly telling people "tomorrow I'm fighting Joe Gans for the lightweight title!" everyday.

TLDR: getting punched is bad for you, no matter which year you're living in.

 

Bingo. Sometimes it hits right away, case in point Meldrick Taylor. Other times you'll get someone like Floyd Patterson who is very active and high functioning for decades, and then seemingly suddenly he's in a fog, even though Sonny Liston hasn't hit him in the head for thirty years.

Living a healthy lifestyle is a big predictor of a guy handling the toll of the ring imho.

I had the chance to speak to Jesse James Leija a few years ago. He admits he has some signs of punchiness (forgetful etc.) and that Gabe Ruelas has it someone worse than he does. Mike Grable, who took Oscar DLH 10 rounds also had symptoms of punch drunkeness, but again relatively mild.

The point is, you don't need to take a ton of back to back beating to end up with brain damage. If you have a couple dozen amateur fights and 20+ pro bouts that's plenty to cause serious problems for your neurology, especially with sparring tossed in there too.

Hopefully relevalations about the neurological cost of fighting will lead to referees and corner men being less reluctant to stop bouts that are veering toward non-competitiveness. You only get one brain.

 

As far as footage of old-school fighters go, there is 1949 footage of Tony Zale being interviewed just after he retired. He speaks indistinctly, so much so, that you can only understand about half of what he says.

 

I am sure a lot more were punch drunk and damaged than we saw given the lack of media then in fact if we all look at the boxers many of us have been around few escape some damage I am awaiting symptoms myself as most of those I knew when fighting are showing signs....the pugilistica dementia syndrome was not the only damage fighters get some never slur but can't remember anything or like Ali trauma related Parkinson's etc....A good friend of mine fought 23 y.o. Vince Phillips at 16 yrs of age and already had about 350 fights as an amateur against anyone who would and could fight bigger, older no issues his dad was his coach and was ruthless and mean as f%$k....after the fight with Vince he started shuffling and his speech became a whisper....his memory seemed fine and his balance was a little off but that was the manifestation of his damage I could see.....I saw him 10 yrs later and he was im the same condition though his balance had improved it seemed.

I have always thought that as Samba alluded too that with modernization and chemicals etc.....the brain seems more fragile in some ways today with the onset of brain diseases being more common than ever....in modern diets we see more and more of these disorders..... the disorders that are common today but seemed rarer or at least subtle enough to be not diagnosed back then......and I suspect we will see more and more in the future with the unnatural additives etc....put in foods and water purification etc...I would also add most fighters especially then tended to live a less than healthy lifestyle which certainly is not a proven anti aging solution....sort of difficult for the body to heal itself with drugs, unhealthy diets, excessive alcohol, late nights and fast women.

I also think genetics are part of the equation people like LaMotta, Jeffries, Chuvalo etc....were resilient to brain injury more than most these 3 in particular no doubt being similar in body types with large heads, short thick necks and physically strong may have had some common characteristics in stature that allowed for it....but most don't the brain isn't meant to absorb damage that often without losing its ability to heal its neuro pathways

There are a lot of symptoms of brain damage that does not have slurring involved such as impulse control issues, memory issues, short tempers etc.....are all signs of some damage in the pre frontal cortex region. They look the same and seem to be the same person but the personality changes are dramatic. I saw a lot of soldiers in my unit after exposure to too many bombs etc.....become different people from TBI's.

 

Lewis and Wlad both seem to be in great mental shape considering their long and top level careers.

 

Louis had strokes, so I'm not sure to what extent it's boxing.

 

I personally know quite a few men who boxed amateur and pro, that were not world class but the effects of the boxing ring, like slurred speech is clearly evident. Back in those days if you wasn't world class and the world didn't know your name it would be impossible to know how many fighters were effected by boxing (or kick boxing/ Muay thai) for that matter. But the effects of boxing and many fights still would be noticeable to friends and family.

 

Ad Wolgast was 7 levels beyond punch drunk.

 

That's what children's blood will do for you.

 

As an addendum to my previous post on this thread, here is an article about Willie Pep's dementia: https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-2001-02-18-0102181646-story.html

Of course, you are likely aware that Pep's chief rival, Sandy Saddler suffered from dementia long before he died.

Old-time fighters had a lot more fights than present-era fighters. Complicating things even more now is what I believe to be a fact, that fighters nowadays are generally stronger due to modern conditioning and "supplements," so that an average fighter today probably hits harder than the average fighter of 40 or more years ago. This is exponentially so, I believe, in the heavyweight class where there are no limits to how much muscle a guy can put on.

The lower weight classes are affected by modern-era weigh-ins, as well. Nowadays, a guy weighs in a day or two before a fight. His in-the-ring weight can be anywhere from five to 15 pounds more than his weigh-in weight. This means there is more beef in the fighters in any given weight class than in prior years. It also leads to more mismatches, I believe. Some fighters with naturally heavier frames can de-hydrate and then re-hydrate more than other fighters. I much prefer the old way where the fighters weigh in at 10 a.m. on the day of the fight.

All these things affect brain damage. The brain can't take absorb any more punishment than it could years ago. But fighters, I believe, can deliver more.

Just to clarify where I'm coming from, I believe that although fighters are stronger across the board, I don't think their stamina or skill level is any better now than in the 1930s or 40s.

Another possible thing to consider, although I don't know whether I buy it entirely (but I do have a bias that the craft has generally slipped because the teacher/trainers are not as many as in earlier generations, but that is a side issue here) is that a deterioration in boxing skills (generally, but not in all cases) may have contributed to fighters getting hurt more nowadays. That probably deserves its own post! Like I say, I don't quite know where I come out on that one.

 

The name "Ezzard Charles" kept ringing through my head as I read that.

Lamotta and Marciano seemed to have skulls of diamond, both took beatings but never got brain damage. Walcott, Baer and Louis were fine also.

However, lots of people died in that time period.

Ezzard Charles killed a man
Robinson killed a man
Carnera killed a man
Baer killed a man
IIRC Ambers killed a man
Marciano got damn close, and left Vingo with paralysis

So yeah, maybe on paper less brain damage, but alot more death

 

Ezz died of ALS, which seems to have a high incidence in the King of Contact Sports, American football. Have other gotten ALS?