Wilder/Fury: an example of perfect dance partners

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Glass City Cobra, Oct 10, 2021.


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  1. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    History has plenty of guys who just seem to be an ideal matchup. You had the Ali vs Frazier trilogy, Pacquiao vs Marquez, Gatti/Ward, Holyfield and Bowe, etc.

    Ali once said: "I bring out the best in my opponents, but Fraizer brings out the best in me".

    Some boxers, it seems their destiny in life was to meet a certain person who for one reason or another, clash like oil and water. Either through their clash of personalities, styles, or both. Those are often the best rivalries and despite the fact Wilder didn't manage to officially win any of the 3 bouts, the incredible drama, stakes, and pace of all bouts was a sight to behold. I'm glad to have witnessed it. Shame on the weight classes that have guys ranked in the top 10 who just aren't fighting each other, props need to be given to these two goliaths who showed an insane will to win.

    For all this talk about how wilder has little skill, is a dummy, can't adapt, and is a one trick pony, my response is so what? Not everyone is going to be a well rounded ideal boxer. Some guys choose to focus on only one area of development either by choice or because they're limited in talent/bodily features and can only fight one way. It's like a video game where someone is leveling up and chooses to only focus on power with their skill points. Call it foolish, but it forces everyone to respect you.

    The point being: Fury is either #1 or #2 in the division and a h2h monster. A 6'8 behemoth who moves well, has a good grasp on the basics, can switch hit, can box or slug, AND recently showed he's not just a feather fisted technician. And despite all that, a guy with limited amateur experience, limited skill, who telegraphs often, has very leaky defense, managed to bring Fury to the absolute brink (who I happen to consider top 10 h2h status as of 2021, argue if you want).

    Fury was like the lazy smart kid in class who constantly made everyone around him look dumb and isn't living up to his potential, but a new transfer student shows up and forces him to live up to that potential. Fury would not be great without this trilogy, therefore Wilder is great. Not a great boxer, but a great fighter. Is wilder amongst the best in the division history? Absolutely not, but he proved that his statement was correct: everyone else has to be perfect for 12 rounds, he only has to be perfect for one second. At no point could Fury jus relax and coast to a decision or take his time picking wilder apart. 4 brutal knockdowns across 3 fights, a zombie who never stops trying to tear your head off no matter how hard you hit him. A non stop storm of wild (pun intended), looping blows that are difficult to anticipate and impossible to tank.

    It was quite similar to the Holmes vs Shavers fights, where despite the huge gap in skill and ability, the boxer was in a state of severe danger whether he knew it or not. I'll go ahead and say this: Wilder could have potentially, (key word, potentially) Kod ANYONE the 1st and 3rd fights with fury if he managed to land something big in terms of h2h. The facts of the matter are that in all 3 bouts he was at a major disadvantage skill wise, gave up anywhere from 30-40 lbs, and came dangerously close to closing the show multiple times despite his lack of timing, technique, and sloppy finishing skills. Fury only managed to survive due to insane recovery, survival skills (clinching, mauling), and sheer determination.

    Congratulations to both these men who fought like junkyard dogs and gave the fans their money's worth.
     
    Glass City Cobra, Oct 10, 2021
    Glass City Cobra, Oct 10, 2021
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  2. salsanchezfan

    salsanchezfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The fight was nothing like Holmes-Shavers. Shavers is something like Wilder, but Fury is a stylistic train wreck. He just makes himself effective by imitating a 6'8" 280-pound wall of mud and slobbering all over you until you fall over from exhaustion. Of such things great fighters are decidedly not made.

    Wilder for his part, is damning evidence of just how systematically poor modern boxing has become. To get as far as he has and rack up all those victories without a shred of actual skill says a whole lot about the depths this sport has now reached.

    I know this comes across as old man grumbling and that's fine, I'll own that. The fight was what it was however. Compare the skills or lack of skills shown last night (from both parties) and then show me some heavyweight fights from the 70's or even the 80's and try to tell me boxing hasn't gone downhill.
     
    salsanchezfan, Oct 10, 2021
    salsanchezfan, Oct 10, 2021
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    An ill-prepared Fury completely outboxed a focused Wilder in the first fight and was robbed; a well-prepared Fury absolutely slaughtered a hampered Wilder in the second; and then we got a messy third where Fury again destroyed Wilder.

    They weren't great dance partners, nothing like, it's just Wilder is a great puncher. Wilder won very few rounds and certainly didn't bring the best out of Fury who was well below par first fight, dealing with the affects of COVID-19 and had his training camp interrupted by a critically ill infant in the third. Meanwhile, the third also robbed us of the richest fight in boxing history in the shape of AJ-Fury.

    So I don't see it that way, at all.

    If the judges got it right we'd have had one fight.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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  4. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Fury got dropped in two separate rounds in the first fight, was coached to his feet by Jack Reiss, and only had a significant edge in punches landed in two rounds of the first fight. I'm pretty sure the judges got it right.

    AJ didn't deserve the big stage if he couldn't beat Usyk anyway. Maybe he wouldve fought Fury already if he hadn't quit against Andy Ruiz.
     
    NoNeck, Oct 10, 2021
    NoNeck, Oct 10, 2021
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  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That puts you in a tiny and meaningless minority.

    None of which changes anything I wrote.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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  6. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Thinking the judges who watched it ringside and are paid to score did a reasonable job, while neither of us was ringside, is a minority opinion I'm okay with.

    It won't raise your credibility to be grumpy in the wake of one of the most exciting trilogies in heavyweight history. I suggest not watching boxing if it puts you in a bad mood.
     
    NoNeck, Oct 10, 2021
    NoNeck, Oct 10, 2021
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  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, that's a reasonable approach, as long as you feel that way about every single judge's decision form hereon in on the forum you'll be a paragon of consistentcy.

    If, on the other hand, it can be determined that you sometimes prefer your own card to that of the judges you would be revealed as a weird, stirring bullshitter. Imagine that.

    It puts me in a great mode, I loved it, as can be seen from the watchalong thread where i posted before and after last night's fight. I'm not even remotely grumpy about the fight, I loved it.

    But it's not evidence of some status of these two being ideal for each other and bringing out the best in each other. Fury won most of the first fight by, almost every second of the second fight and most of the third fight.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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  8. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Fury almost got knocked out in the first and third fights. That's why it's special. And he executed a gameplan that was opposite from his norm in the second fight which was also unique.

    Last night was better and more significant than Lyle--Foreman as far as I'm concerned, and that's spoken of as a classic.
     
    NoNeck, Oct 10, 2021
    NoNeck, Oct 10, 2021
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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, I already said that.

    Yeah, big heavyweights knocking lumps out of each other are very popular with almost every fight fan.

    But it's not evidence of some status of these two being ideal for each other and bringing out the best in each other. Fury won most of the first fight, almost every second of the second fight and most of the third fight.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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  10. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Dempsey-Tunney 1 & 2 were pretty similar, in the sense that they were one sided except for the knockdown. Both series even had long counts and controversy.

    I would say that old Dempsey and Tunney brought out the best in each other, so I can't really fault somebody for saying the same of Wilder and Fury. It's a very different rhythm than Ali / Frazier or Tua / Ibeabuchi, but it works in its own way. You even got a bit of switching roles, weird gambits from Fury, traded KD's, and so on.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021
    cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You think the best of Dempsey was in the Dempsey-Tunney fights?

    I can only respectfully disagree with that particular perspective.

    The best comparison I've seen is Firpo-Dempsey. Nobody brought the best out in anybody but Firpo being a very good puncher made a technical mismatch very entertaining for a bit.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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  12. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    No. The best of old Dempsey. It brought out the best from Dempsey that he was capable of giving at the time of the fights.

    Dempsey -- the old, dissipated Dempsey -- managed to pull himself together to assemble a real threat to Tunney. He had a style that meshed well with Tunney's cautious mobility, giving the crowd hope that the one big punch could land at any time. And it did. He came very close to finishing Tunney off for a 10 count after being outboxed in fight 2, whatever the scorecards might have said at the time of the KD.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021
    cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021
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  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't even think he was better against Tunney than he was against Sharkey, which came in between those two fights. In that fight he was brutal in aggressive. Against Tunney he was utterly thrashed, close to being knocked out, and hardly won five rounds.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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  14. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yet Sharkey-Dempsey is not considered the classic that Dempsey/Tunney 2 is.

    Reason being, IMO, that the way Tunney had to fight Dempsey kept the tension going the whole time. It was a high wire act to see whether Tunney could avoid making a fatal mistake.
     
    cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021
    cross_trainer, Oct 10, 2021
    #14
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It was not a world-title fight.

    I think i'm probably jus not understanding this whole concept of "perfect dance partner". I'll summarise and leave it here.

    1 - Dempsey didn't do very well against Tunney. He was thrashed outside of scoring a dramatic knockdown.

    2 - He might have performed to his theoretical best, if that is what you are saying, but there is no way to know whether or not this theory is true. He could have been much, much, much, much better in a Firpo rematch for example. No way to know. I do think his aggressive, punching victory over Sharkey undermines the notion that he was at his absolute possible best while being thrashed by Tunney though.

    3 - It is indisputable that "the best" or "the best possible dance partner" in the second fight is fantasy where Wilder and Fury are concerned. It was a miserable, embarrassing, non-competitive thrashing.

    4 - Fury was irrefutably not at his best in the first fight of the trilogy. He did not "have the best brought out of him" by Wilder and says as much himself.
     
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
    McGrain, Oct 10, 2021
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