Wilder vs Holmes

Jabbing isn't just about reach , more importantly its about timing and speed. M.Tyson and D.Qawi were usually much shorter with a shorter reach than their opponents, but out jabbed them on most occasions in their primes.
Timing and speed.
I'm sure Wilder and his hugh ego thinks he'd beat Holmes, he's a pro fighter and that's expected. He'd have the "punchers luck" chance because of Holmes susceptibility to right hand punchers.
But 9 out of 10 times he'd get schooled. The 10th time he could knock Holmes down, but the wild failing he does when he hurts his opponents would give Holmes plenty of time to gather himself, and go on to spank Wilder like a child.

 

Wilder's height would be a disadvantage against Holmes. Larry like to loop that overhand, and after enough jabs Deontay would start getting caught again and again.

I like Wilder best out of all the heavies today, but at this point (we'll see how he does after Fury III) I can see people like the 90s best beating him (Holy I Bowe, Holyfield, Steward-era Lewis...90s Foreman would be interesting).

 

This is a strange statement to make since the most skilled bigger opponent he ever faced (Larry Holmes) he knocked down.

That isn't a particularly significant statistic without context. Who were these opponents and what was their record and skill level? What was Shavers' condition?

215 is not an actual weight class. That's just an arbitrary number someone can pick out of a hat. That feels like a convenient way to knock someone's record and you can do that with anyone's resume.

Ok but when people bring up how Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis managed to KO huge opponents over 215+ lbs you change the conversation to say those KO's don't count since those big heavies of the past lacked skill?

 

Holmes of course. He had Ali-like toughness. For example, that devastating punch from Shavers...

 

You do realize the nutritional content in food has gone down significantly in the past century right? Not having technological advances like modern day fighters made you much tougher as well. Other than training methods.... Recovery today seems to be the real game changer.

 

How is this even a question ?

Holmes would carve him up like a Thanksgiving turkey

 

You are evaluating this fight through rose colored glasses, like a lot of classic boxing fans. To be clear, Holmes was the better fighter and I think he would win.

But to dismiss the fact that Wilder would pose a serious threat to Holmes -- beyond the "wild flailing" that you describe -- is ignoring Holmes' history as well. Holmes would have to fight very cautiously, and it would be fascinating viewing.

 

Yes, he wala Rahman/McCall who are not near the level of Johnson who was faster,stronger,more skillful...

Nope Johnson is superior in every other department.
Chin?Johnson
Speed?Johnson
Footwok?Johnson
Power?Johnson
Stamina?Johnson.
Johnson is better than Holyfield and would bully Tyson in every department.

Moron he said he is in good shape and he was not 37-38 but 35 years old while his opponents was 33 dumb man.That is not even difference and if he said he is in good shape I belive him more than you.He said that Bellew would always had his number and that he would always beat him moron and I take his words over your.

Everybody agrees with me inclhding Burt Sugar and Don Turner and I'll take their word over your moron.
You should shut up because you are stupid that's why.
Ringside report and boxrec:
15. Ezzard Charles
14. Gene Tunney
13. Mike Tyson
12. Sonny Liston
11. Evander Holyfield
10. Rocky Marciano
9. Lennox Lewis
8. Jack Dempsey
7. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Johnson
5. Joe Frazier
4. James J. Jeffries
3. George Foreman
2. Joe Louis
1. Muhammad Ali
Klitchkos are not in top 15.

He was in his prime and he was even faster than be was in 2000s.He was better,one punch KO artist,faster,stronger....
And still was beaten by bum.
Only fool again here is you.

Second fight does not even count because he came from layoff and was washed fighter.
I am talking abiut first Wlad fight and Viatali fight.
After those fights Byrd looked normal while they looked like a pussum pecker and moose twit.

I don't agree because you made it look lie he really was but he wasn't!It was more 60/40 for Vitali which isn't that much you made it to be fool.
I didn't agree because he beat Vitali and you again jelaous because Byrd is not near Dempsey in anything.

So now In the same post you claim Vitali was so ahead but I proved you wrong.
It was just 6% differences in punches according to boxrec but you fool dissagreed with thag.
You stupid troll keep embarassing yourself because you would get beaten by someone because of your mouth who is keyboard warrior.
Only stupid moron could said Tyson was past at 24 years old bht Foreman wasn't at 48!that shows how stupid you are.

Here we go again fool:
Holyfield is a counterpuncher which means trade
Morrison is swarmer=which means trade
But both they runned from Foreman even knowing they are not outboxers/dance like Ali/Young were.

Well you found nice person to listen another bum like you and hardcore Tysonite?
You should hit mental hospital with your friend Primo together ha ha!
I am sorry because you and your friend are Tysonites and mental cases.
GOAT Marciano is overrated Primo Carnera....the man really thinks his hero would beat everyone but he got his ass whooped by Douglas.
Marciano,Liston,Foreman,Ali and FOTC Frazier would kill Tyson!
Case closed bum!

 

Holmes could well win every minute of the fight and Wilder can win just by winning 1 second of it. Never bet the house against Wilder with the firepower he has. It's not just the power, it's his ability to land it. He's knocked down every man he's faced.

 

First of all, Lewis beat them both in rematches.
If we delve deeper and look at the circumstances of those fights, you will see the following:
1. Lewis was not yet in his prime in the first McCall fight. McCall caught him with a good counterpunch in that exchange that would probably KO most opponents.
2. After teaming up with Sterward, Lewis became a much better all round boxer and learned how to protect his chin better and how to use his physical attributes (strength, height, reach, weight) to his advantage a lot better.
3. Lewis underestimated Rahman in their first fight. He came in a bit overweight and didn't prepare properly. He was cocky and became careless during the fight.
Rahman was a pretty heavy hitter and the punch he caught Lewis with would of pretty much taken out anyone.
Lewis didn't make the same mistake in their rematch and he clearly beat Rahman.

Now, regarding the comparison between Lewis and Johnson, Lewis pretty much is superior in almost every department: he's stronger, hits way harder, has a far superior technique. The only area where Johnson might have an edge is defense, cause he was a good grappler. But grappling worked in his era, against those stiff skilless bums he faced, it won't work against someone like Lewis. Plus he'd probably even be deducted points for excessive holding.
Lewis even has better chin. He was KO'd/TKO'd by bombs thrown by big HWs. Johnson was floored by a skinny MW like Ketchel.

Chin - Holyfield by far. No skinny MW like Ketchel is ever gonna floor someone like Holyfield
Speed - pretty similar
Footwork - Johnson was good, but his movement worked for the opposition of his era, he'd be in trouble against a more modern HW
Power - no definitive proof who hit harder. Perhaps Johnson is in front, but Holy hits hard enough himself
Stamina - prime Holyfield had more than good enough stamina. Sure, Johnson could go 20-30 rounds, but the pace in those rounds was not that intense. Plus, his potential extra stamina will be irrelevant in a 12 round fight. Johnson probably doesn't even make it to the end, he gets KOd.
And the most important area, skill, where Holy is miles in front.

Did you drop out of school or is your match really that bad ?!?
Haye was born in 1980. Since he fought Bellwe in 2017 and 2018, how does that make him 35 you chump ?!??
He was 37-38 during those fights.

So now you're backpedaling . First you said they are not top 20, now they are not top 15. So you dropped down 5 positions in order to further your agenda.
Bert Sugar's list is irrelevant. He was a senile old man who lacked objectivity and was in love with old timers and some bull**** stories he heard about them, most of which had couldn't be verified. And given that he died in 2012, he didn't even get to see the way the Klitschkos entire careers panned out.
The International Boxing Research Organization, which is far more competent organization and who's members are far more knowledgeable in terms of complete and accurate boxing records, plus boxing research, have compiled the following ratings/list of HWs based on achievements, resume and impact on the sport:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Larry Holmes
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Johnson
7. Rocky Marciano
8. Sonny Liston
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Joe Frazier
11. Mike Tyson
12. Evander Holyfield
13. James J Jeffries
14. Gene Tunney
15. Sam Langford
16. Ezzard Charles
17. Jersey Joe Walcott
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Vitaly Klitschko
20. Riddick Bowe

As you can clearly see, both Klitschkos are in the top 20.

No he was not in his prime. As I've already mentioned, both Lewis and Wladimir entered their primes after working with Steward, who taught them how to protect their chins better and how to use their physical advantages.

You said Wladimir lost both fights, now you're changing the script again.
And even if only use the first Wlad fight, he still won that. And Vitaly only lost due to injury, while he was ahead on the cards.

What boxrec says is irrelevant, boxrec doesn't decide the outcome of a fight, judges do, and they all had Vitaly way in front on the scorecards.

So now according to you boxers aren't allowed to use other styles of to improvise ?!?
Are you that stupid ?!? Why did Ali stay on the ropes then ?! Why didn't he just used his out-boxing like he usually did ?!
I'll tell you why, cause he understood he can't win that way, therefore he adapted and improvised.
Holy and Morrison did the same thing. Why would they be stupid to stay and try to trade with Foreman ?! That would be foolish and would play into Foreman's strength. Instead they used their brain and won, that's the most important thing.
Morrison kept his distance and out-boxed Foreman.
Holy also addapted, but he also countered a lot. He won.
That's all that matters.

Apart from a prime Liston and from Foreman, I do not think the rest can beat Tyson.

Sure, we're the mental cases. Can't you see almost everyone on this forum thinks you're nuts.
You're stupidity and stubbornness knows no limits. Even when you're proven wrong, you can't accept it.
That's why people don't take you serious and think you're a troll. Even when you come up with some good arguments, you latter screw it up.

This content is protected

 

Mr Johnny Bravo called he was not in his prime...he was way too green or way too old....stupid excuses by stupid man!
Lewis beat them but how?
He beat washed and cocaine addict McCall in rematch!
Lennox Lewis 238 lbs lost to Oliver McCall 231 lbs by TKO at 0:31 in round 2 of 12
And how he won?
Lennox Lewis 251 lbs beat Oliver McCall 237 lbs by TKO at 0:55 in round 5 of 12
Lewis controlled the first three rounds with stiff left jabs and occasional hard rights to the head. McCall refused to go to his corner after the third round and just walked around the ring. In the fourth round, all McCall did was cover up and walk around the ring. He threw two punches. When the round ended, referee Mills Lane took McCall by the arm and led him to his corner. McCall cried as Lane and his handlers talked to him, trying to figure out what was wrong. McCall told them, "I want to fight. I need to fight." McCall threw only one punch in the fifth before Lane stopped the fight 55 seconds into the round. After it was stopped, McCall, with the crowd of about 4,500 booing loudly, stalked to the dressing room, refusing to speak to anyone.
Lewis won only because McCall mental breakdown and even then he could not beat him not even staggered him!
Lewis was in his prime for MCcall since he beat Weaver,Tucker,Bruno,Ruddock,Mercer,Morrison...his best wins are from that period.Brakpan, Gauteng, South Africa, is 5,200 feet above sea level. Rahman arrived on March 27 so he would have time to adjust to the high altitude, but Lewis didn't arrive until April 10. Lewis trained in Las Vegas, Nevada, which is 2,000 feet above sea level. He trained in Las Vegas so he could also film scenes for a cameo appearance in the movie Ocean's 11. After Lewis was knocked out by Rahman, HBO commentator Larry Merchant said, "He just drowned in Ocean's 11."Lewis was a 20-1 favorite.I can't believe that, I just can't believe it," Lewis said. "I felt fine in there. I was going about my work nice and comfortably and there was no way Hasim Rahman could beat me.
Lewis was in his prime and in good shape with Stewart still he knocked Lewis out so no excuses again mr JohnNY eXCUSE!
Lennox had nowhere near the defensive skills of Jack Johnson. Senior boxing enthusiasts and trainers I've spoken to universally hail Johnson as the greatest of all time, ahead of Ali, Louis, Marciano and Dempsey.
Johnson has no peers in the clinch. Watch him. His head is tucked in, in perfect position so he cant be hit. His arms are always on the inside (where Lewis lets you get) so he can actualy grab the other fighter arms, to wear them down, and stop them from hitting you cleanly. There is no way, Lennox will fire off a clean shot with that right of his. But Johnson, with his hands on the inside will land his left at will (Lewis doesnt even use his right to protect himself and this can be then followed with the right. STylistically, other than Lennox' obvious size, this is an easy fight for johnson.
OH for stupid man Johnny Ketchel was lhw and did not floored Johnson because he it was exhibition with no winner but Ketchelwas dirty and what happened next?Johnson knocked his mouth very badly and Ketchel was monster puncher!
If Ketchel landed that hand in exhibition against Lewis who would not expect that punch Lennox would be knocked out!

Jack Johnson, well into his forties would spar with the very best fighters of all weight classes at Stillman's gym, and whup them all in the process.

I think people underestimate Jack Johnson and his legacy, probably due to the advancement of modern genetics and technology.

I see Jack Johnson out-boxing Lewis over 15 rounds, with the possibility of stopping him late.

Gunboat Smith in an interview I believe in 1970 stated the bout was fake. He was a sparring partner for both fighters FOR THIS BOUT traveling back and forth between the respective camps. Smith was also at ringside for the bout.

You don't see Johnson ducking punches. It's mostly blocking with Johnson and he was a master at it
How can anyone say that it doesnt look like either fighter is holding anything back when Johnson literally catches Ketchel TWICE after dropping him, hoists him back onto his feet and then does not try to finish him. After the first knockdown Johnson backs off and doesnt try to do anything. Obviously he carried Ketchel, literally and figuratively.
It was exhibition that went wrong!
Holyfield was knocked also by LHW Cooper!
ohnson could handle all styles and distances and was unbeatable for many years....Johnson should be able to make holyfield tentative and just box and clinch to a decision in a great close bout.
Jack Johnson gave up an inch in height and 4" in reach, he may outweigh Holyfield by a bit

• 
  
  

 

This content is protected

If You Can’t Ignore Them, Call Them on Their B.S.
Sometimes, ignoring a troll just isn’t an option.

Thankfully, a troll is not out making logical arguments. They aren’t masters of debate. They just enjoy stirring the pot.

If you can, calmly ask them to back up what they’re saying with facts. Usually, they’ll have none, and will lose steam pretty quickly once you deflate their “argument.”
Remember when I asked for your opinion? ME NEITHER

I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup, and **** out a better argument than that

Ex: You'll never find someone like me again.
You: That's the point.

I'd like to see things from your point of view, but I can't shove my head that far up my ass.

I'd slap you but I don't want to get **** on my hand.

How old are you? Wait, nevermind, you probably can't count that high.

Keep talking, maybe someday you'll say something intelligent.

If you have a problem with me, take a piece of paper, write it down, then stick that up your ass.

• I would love to insult you, but I guess nature already did that job.

• Please don’t say anything further, you lower the IQ of the entire street.

• I would reply to that but I am out of ‘effs’ to give.

• Oh! I am sorry. Were you trying to insult me?

• HA-HA-HA And I thought my jokes were bad.

• The stupidity of your statement sir, was so damn high that Kim Jong Un just tried committing suicide.

• Oh I just realized that your IQ is lower than a penguin’s.

• I wonder sometimes how can someone embarrass himself again and again.

• Over 7 billion people on the planet and god chose to make you the biggest fool.

• You just created a new low for mankind with that argument sir.

• Oh! My head is spinning trying to figure out the stupidity of your statement.

• Thou art one of a kind because even god held his head after creating your brain.

 

Boxrec and judges in favor of Byrd troll!!
Chris Byrd 211 lbs beat Vitali Klitschko 244 lbs by RTD at 3:00 in round 9 of 12

• Date: 2000-04-01
• Location: Estrel Convention Center, Neukoelln, Berlin, Germany
• Referee: Genaro Rodriguez
• Judge: Joachim Jacobsen 83-88
• Judge: Melvina Lathan 83-88
• Judge: Dr Ruben M Garcia 82-89

• World Boxing Organization Heavyweight Title (3rd defense by Klitschko)
• Promoter: Universum Box-Promotion

 

This content is protected

http://www.boxing.com/the_one_hundred_greatest_heavyweights_of_all_time_part_ten_10_1.html
25) Max Baer (1929-41)
24) Gene Tunney (1915-28)
23) Ken Norton (1967-81)
22) Floyd Patterson (1952-72)
21) Riddick Bowe (1989-2008)
20) James J. Corbett (1886-1903)
19) Joe Jeanette (1904-22)
18) Max Schmeling (1924-48)
17) Jersey Joe Walcott (1930-53)
16) Sam Langford (1902-26)
15) Ezzard Charles (1940-59)
14) Sonny Liston (1953-70)
13) Mike Tyson (1985-2005)
12) Harry Wills (1911-32)
11) Jim Jeffries (1896-1910)
10) Jack Dempsey (1914-27)
Record: 62-6-9, 51 KO, 6 No Decisions
World Champion 1919-26, 6 Defenses
Heavyweight Champions/Titlists Faced – 3: (Jess Willard, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey)
9) Lennox Lewis (1989-2003)
Record: 42-2-1, 32 KO
Lineal World Champion 1998-2001, 6 Defenses; 2001-04, 2 Defenses
WBC Titlist 1992-94, 3 Defenses; WBC 1997-99, 6 Defenses; WBC/WBA/IBF 99-2000; WBC/IBF 00-01, 3 Defenses; WBC/IBF 01-02, 1 Defense; WBC 2002-03, 1 Defense
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 13: (Mike Weaver, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Shannon Briggs, Evander Holyfield, Frans Botha, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, Vitali Klitschko)
8) Rocky Marciano (1947-55)
Record: 49-0, 43 KO
World Champion 1952-55, 6 Defenses
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 4: (Joe Louis, Lee Savold, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles)
7) Joe Frazier (1965-81)
Record: 32-4-1, 27 KO
World Champion 1970-73, 4 Defenses
NYSAC Titlist 1968-70, 5 Defenses
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 2: (Jimmy Ellis, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman)
6) Evander Holyfield (1984-Present)
Record: 42-10-2, 27 KO
Lineal World Champion 1990-92, 3 Defenses; 93-94
WBC/WBA/IBF Titlist 1990-92, 3 Defenses; WBA/IBF Titlist 93-94; WBA Titlist 1996-99, 4 Defenses; WBA 2000-01
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 15: (Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, Buster Douglas, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Riddick Bowe, Michael Moorer, Ray Mercer, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, John Ruiz, Hasim Rahman, Chris Byrd, Sultan Ibragimov, Nicolay Valuev)
5) George Foreman (1969-97)
Record: 76-5-1, 68 KO
World Champion 1973-74, 2 Defenses; Lineal World Champion 1994-97, 3 Defenses
WBA/IBF 1994-95; IBF 1995, 1 Defense
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 7: (Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Muhammad Ali, Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Michael Moorer, Shannon Briggs)
4) Larry Holmes (1973-2002)
Record: 69-6, 44 KO
Lineal World Champion 1980-85, 12 Defenses
WBC Titlist 1978-83, 16 Defenses; IBF Titlist 1983-85, 3 Defenses
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 12: (Ken Norton, Mike Weaver, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Tim Witherspoon, “Bonecrusher” Smith, Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Ray Mercer, Evander Holyfield, Oliver McCall)
3) Jack Johnson (1897-1938)
Record: 77-13-14, 48 KO, 19 No Decisions
World Champion 1908-15, 8 Defenses
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 3: (Marvin Hart, Bob Fitzsimmons, Tommy Burns, Jim Jeffries, Jess Willard)
2) Joe Louis (1934-51)
Record: 66-3, 52 KO
World Champion 1937-49, 25 Defenses
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 8: (Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey, Jim Braddock, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano)
1) Muhammad Ali (1960-81)
Record: 56-5, 37 KO
World Champion 1964-70, 9 Defenses; 1974-78, 10 Defenses; 1978
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 10: (Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Joe Frazier, Jimmy Ellis, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, Trevor Berbick)
No one includes Klitchko brothers!

 

Ali would beat him worse than Douglas and Holyfield did and Fotc Frazier would kill him late!