Wilder vs Joshua

Discussion in 'British Boxing Forum' started by Wig, Apr 2, 2023.

?

Who wins and how?

  1. Wilder KO

  2. Wilder Pts

  3. Draw

  4. Joshua Pts

  5. Joshua KO

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Howitzer1888

    Howitzer1888 Active Member Full Member

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    Yeah, fair point. I still feel like the Fury fight was a calculated risk that went wrong for Wilder to be honest.

    I’m still not convinced by that run of his, though it may be partially down to the lack of quality in the division. I’ve expressed my opinions on Ortiz and Fury already, and Breazeale is poor, being incredibly easy to hit and not that difficult to hurt either. That run of 6 fights is inflated somewhat by the fact that 5 of those are Fury or Ortiz.

    To be fair I think the Ortiz win was a decent win (the first one mainly), and I don’t seem to recall it being a mandatory? (Could be wrong on that). Other than him I think the rest of his wins are not particularly great.

    As for Joshua I think it’s both his and Wilder’s fault that the fight hasn’t happened. Furthermore, just because someone says they want the fight doesn’t mean they actually want it to happen. (Look at Fury with the Usyk fight for example). Maybe it’s both of them that aren’t taking risks. The one that deserves the most credit for taking big risks is Usyk.
     
  2. nurological

    nurological Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Great Post.

    People forget career trajectories are different, it doesn't matter where you were it's all about where are you now.

    Having said that, at 38 you can't help but be a little disappointed at her career as a whole.
     
    Redbeard7 likes this.
  3. Furey

    Furey EST & REG 2009 Full Member

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    I can't see Wilder not catching AJ and for that reason I think he chins him.

    Also AJ has looked tentative and gun shy lately - if he's facing someone with the power of Wilder I'm unsure as to how willing he's going to be to let his big shots go.....
     
  4. Manning

    Manning Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's not a great post. it's nonsense. When Joshua fought Povetkin he was on a steller run where he completely cleaned out the second tier of the division. Always in dominating fashion and usually with a brutalising KO finish.

    Price. brutally KO'd
    Hammer. Won every round. (Hammer came into the fight after two big KO wins)
    Rudenko. Won every round. (note, Rudenko was unbeaten but for two robbery on points to Hughie Fury and Lucas Browne.
    Duhaupas. (Brutally KO'd in the 6th. Came into the fight after stopping Helenius and taking Wilder to the 11th round.
    Wach. (The man who couldn't be stopped. Stopped.)
    Mike Perez. (The new Mike Tyson. Brutalised in the first round.)
    Tank Takam (Brutually knocked out. Note: He's still a major player today in this era.
    Charr. Brutually KO'd.

    Split that run up and it would be good enough to earn 3 seperate mando shots. It's a better run than when Wilder held a belt.
     
    Finkel likes this.
  5. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It all depends what happens in the next couple of years. With Wilder's height, power, determination and experience he'll be dangerous for a while yet. If he KO's Joshua x2 and KO's Usyk (for argument's sake) then I don't think his career could be classed as a disappointment at all. He was moved slowly on the way up, maybe too slowly, but then again he's never lost to an Andy Ruiz or a similar massive underdog.
     
  6. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Describing Takam as a "major player in this era today" is comical.

    Nice to see you omitting Wlad.

    Povetkin was an officially 6'2, 225 lbs, 39 year old pressure fighter who was coming off being knocked down by Price and two decisions over gatekeepers Hammer and Rudenko. A simple Google search shows that Povetkin was a wide 11/2 underdog, fighting away from home in London as a massive B-side (the judges had him winning 2 rounds of the 6 completed, whereas the Boxrec consensus is that he won 4). Povetkin's best win on that "stellar run" was probably his KO of Takam (scored 0 KD's or KO's against his 10 best opponents) in a back and forth war (the Russian judges had it 4-4 after 8 rounds). The same Takam who lost to Parker, Joshua and Chisora and whose own best career win is 42 year old Thompson by 9-3 decision in France.

    After Povetkin KO'd Price in that war, Hearn was saying that he wanted Povetkin to fight Whyte before Joshua. So there's absolutely no chance that Joshua would have gone to Russia to fight Povetkin in 2016. The only time he's gone to a man's backyard he's been splattered all over the canvas by a 25/1 underdog and quit in 7.
     
    tee_birch likes this.
  7. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Run away then.

    Odds for fight 1: 60-40 wilder
    Odds for fight 2: 55-45 Wilder
    Odds for fight 3: 70-30 Fury

    Fury's Ring ranking in fight 1: 7th
    Fury's Ring ranking in fight 2: 1st
    Fury's Ring ranking in fight 3: 1st

    Your absolute inversion of reality: "Wilder hasn't taken big risks and has avoided the best"
     
  8. Manning

    Manning Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Takam just iced the olympic gold medal winning champ. The man who was supposed to take over and dominate the division. i don't know how much more of a major player in the division you can get.

    Hammer might be a gate keeper but he's also one of Fury's top 10 wins.
     
  9. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Do you think the teams of Wilder, Joshua, Fury and Usyk are into taking "uncalculated risks"? That would make them grossly incompetent or intentionally negligent.

    Regardless of the calculations, oddsmakers thought there was a 40%, 45% and 70% chance that Wilder would lose to Fury in fights 1, 2 and 3 respectively. So they were seen as considerable risks by the "experts". If Wilder gets no credit because he thought he was going to win then no champion fighter can get credit for taking risks because virtually all believe they will win.

    Fighting a top fighter three times or twice is immensely better than fighting mediocre fighters many times. Bowe gets more credit for going 2-1 with former 190 pounder Holyfield than for his other 40+ wins combined. Top fighters can adapt more between rounds and between fights than lesser fighters and they pose a much higher threat, generally along with more wear and tear. In terms of danger and level, list me the 6 fight streaks that are better than Wilder's from 2018-2021 in heavyweight history. There is very little competition in this regard.

    Usyk has been the underdog on just one occasion in his career (Joshua 1) and was close to even odds just once aside from that (Gassiev). Going in, few of his fights were regarded as big risks. But I don't question his courage or willingness to make fights, especially as the rewards are disproportionately great for him (he made relatively little money at cruiser).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2023
  10. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Iced" = out cold. Takam won a decision against the French answer to Audley Harrison, who was coming off a loss to Bakole. Few around here (in fact I've seen no one) were saying that Yoka was going to "dominate the division". Most regarded him as a hype job just waiting to get exposed.

    Hammer (who couldn't lay a glove on Fury, got dropped and quit in 8) is currently either Fury's 10th or 11th best win, depending on whether you rate Kevin Johnson more highly (incidentally many thought Kevin beat Hammer).
     
  11. Manning

    Manning Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    They weren't saying that when he iced Duhaupas in the first round. A certain Duhaupas who is Wilder's best ever win.


    Nobody thought that.
     
  12. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/christian-hammer-vs-kevin-johnson-rbr.496037/

    The theory was that Wilder's 3rd or 4th best opponent beaten Duhaupas (9 fights, 3 defeats, 2 by KO and 5 years post Wilder, 40+) was a shot fighter by that point. By the time Yoka fought Takam he had already been exposed by Bakole, who was dominated and stopped by Hunter. 42 year old Takam beating French Audley doesn't make him a "major player in the current era". But you know this and you're clearly dishonest, so I won't waste any more time on you.
     
  13. Wig

    Wig Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Carlito takam is pivotal to Joshua’s murderers row resume narrative

    @Mitch87 in 3…. 2…
     
    Wizbit1013 likes this.
  14. Murderers' Row

    Murderers' Row Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Great discussions in this thread, well in lads.
     
  15. BoxingAddick

    BoxingAddick Active Member Full Member

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    Honestly mate ive had a few dealings with Redbeard (and many EXACTLY like him) i wouldnt bother he is a troll. There is a very clear reason he doesnt like AJ, Whyte, Chisora but for some reason loves Fury, Wlad etc. Im sure you can guess why.