will Lennox Lewis get his proper due from the Americans at some point?

I thought HBO and Larry Merchant in particularly were quite pro-Lewis in that fight. They liked Lewis.

And in 1996 the British SKY team seemed a bit more sceptical of Lewis's chances of beating Tyson or regaining a championship.

I think the Americans generally rated Lewis more than the Brits did after the McCall loss. I think HBO were very pro-Lewis in the Lewis-Holyfield fights too.

 

It was ESPN commentary i was referring to. I never agreed with the way SKY played down the abilities of Lewis... it's the whole British mantra of supporting the losers not the winners

 

I admit i was rooting for Tuaman against lewis.

 

Lewis was only regarded as OK in North America.A personality as boring as a door knob did not help.

 

Hard to tell, but a lot of Americans and the media there are clearly biased against him - not so much the informed boxing fans though.

And you have some really ludicrous BS, like he had a glass jaw - he only got properly KOd once in his entire career, less than fighters like Liston, Tyson and Frazier, and the other loss was arguably a premature stoppage. He fought several very big punchers like Morrison, Tua, Tyson, and Ruddock.

If you look at the contenders who he fought and dominated, it's a pretty respectable list of very solid fighters. And in his last fight he beat the guy who has since then cruised to easy KO victory time and again. I have him at #4 on my ATG heavyweights list, behind Holmes Ali and Louis.

 

Yeah the British press underrated him. I remember after the McCall stoppage, on British TV the commentator was saying his career was over. Yeah right, one knockout and you can never be a good boxer again atsch

 

Hes not as great as many think. Lewis was a good world champ who brought class to the division. A lack of fights against top opposition at there peak will always hurt him - prime Bowe and Holyfield being the best examples.

 

I think he is overrated to be honest, especially here on ESB.

I read threads stating how he is top 3 HW ever and the greatest HW since Ali etc etc

 

People claiming Lennox is overrated and didn't face good comp. are way off the mark. Lennox Lewis is a first ballot HOFer, ATG and one of the best 6 or 7 guys ever at heavyweight. He has a very good list of fighters and differing styles on his record (important to look at when he fought them) dominated the division for years and had a complete game for a man so big. That should be enough.

Let me put it another way, how many great fighters in their prime did the best light welter ever have on his record? Aaron Pryor is who I am talking about and the answer is none. Arguello who he is famous for and Antonio Cervantes were both slightly past it when Pryor got to them. Pryor is still an all time great, right? See where i'm going? This microscope that we hold some fighters under gets angled the wrong way sometimes and only some fighters are targetted.

All a fighter can do is fight the best available guy, and perform in the big fights and Lennox did both. Julio Cesar Chavez is by all accounts great no one can argue he wasn't and he could be in some peoples top 50 ever. Give me the names of true great fighters he beat in their primes. lets see, a "draw" with Whitaker, A controversial win against Taylor. Taylor was very good for a short period of time, but isn't great, Camacho was past it when Chavez got to him, Rosario was great but not an all time great, just a contemporary great. You see what i'm getting at?

I will give you one more guy that is an all time great fighter, who there may be some questions as to whether he beat a great fighter in their prime and this is going to really surprise you because people know i'm a big fan. James Toney, yes James Toney. Michael Nunn is good not great so is Prince Charles Williams, both guys probably won’t make the Hall of Fame and neither will Reggie Johnson. Toney beat Jirov who was only very good, Holyfield was 40 and past it. I can sit back and do that to 99.9% of the fighters careers.

Bowe wanted nothing to do with Lewis as is well known, so why people still continue to hold that against him is beyond me, for the record he did bash him up in the amateurs. Lennox beat a ATG who was still a beast in Holyfield, 2 or 3 murderous punchers in their primes in style, he avenged all his defeats and has more A level and hardcore satisfying guys that a good record always has then any heavyweight since the Ali era. Morrison, Prime Briggs, Golota, Rudduck, Bruno, Mercer etc.

He is right up there and is no worse then Larry Holmes for skillset and record, also watch his fights and you're left with the impression you're watching a great fighter, people are being way too harsh on him.

 

Slip, I take your point and I dont deny that Lennox was a great fighter worthy of top 10 HW of all time. I do however believe he is overrated when I read people putting him top 3 ATG HW and questioning who was better Lewis or Ali.

You can't deny that:

1. Lewis got beaten by 2 mediocre HW's during his championship years
2. Got a outfought from Bruno until pulling out a lucky punch
3. Taken to the wire with Mercer
4. Got all shook up by Briggs
5. Was behind on all third scorecards against Vitali before the cuts.

These incidents dent Lewis legacy in my opinion

 

I have given Lewis his proper due since the Olympics- back when Brits hated him, said he was Canadian, and cheered for Gary Mason to beat him.

 

I've never argued Lennox was top 3 all time or better then Ali and i've never heard anyone tell me so, certainly not on this forum. This is the problem i have have though. People can spin it anyway to suit their argument.

You can't be serious in pointing out he was "shook" by a big punching prime Briggs and holding that against him and let it effect the way you think of him, you're having a laugh surely? comments like that are what i mean by people are being harsh. Briggs was a very good fighter back then, who started fast and had pop and speed. That was actually a very good performance from Lennox, he blasted a tough guy like Briggs out who took Vitali the distance when he was shot to pieces.

Losing is a part of boxing and Lennox didn't get dominated, he was caught by 2 very solid punchers. He should get more props for overcoming that adversity, not letting it effect him and avenging them both in style. Those guys weren't great but they're not bums either and would give anyone trouble in their prime on a good night.

How can you say going to the wire against Mercer can dent his standing? Do you know what that Mercer brought to the table? I really rate Larry Holmes and he's got a good case for a top 5 spot, You might say he was better then Lewis or ranks higher. Well, do you know that Larry was taken to the wire by lesser fighters? Holmes also struggled in almost all his big fights...Do you know Marciano was outfought by a part time fighter and went to a decision with him? do you know Marciano was dropped by two shot light heavyweights and he would've lost some fights if they were 12 rounders? Do you know Joe Louis went to the wire with a light heavyweight and really lost to Jersey Joe? see we have to apply the same microscope to everyone. I hate to denigrate those great fighters, but my God do you know what we'd say about some great fighters if we nitpicked like you're doing.

I'm not even gonna deal with the Vitali and "lucky" punch comments, that just smells of looking for excuses, are pretty lazy and speak for themselves. Let me tell you how i look at things and i want you to apply this when looking at the greatness or value of fighters. To rank a fighter, assess his ability, dominance in his weight. Then who he fought and when he fought them, then how he would do in others era. I don't know about you but for me Lennox does pretty well in all areas. :good

 

Joe Louis was:
Beaten by a faded Max Scmeling
Dropped by an awful fat man in Toney Galento
Shaken up by a light heavy in Billy Conn
Knocked through the ropes by an untalented giant in Buddy Baer
Dropped twice by Joe Walcott and got a gift decision

Mohammed Ali was:
Knocked down and nearly out by Henry Cooper- Angelo Dundee has admittted to cheating to save him
Taken to a close, some say gift decision agaisnt Doug Jones
Lost the fight of the Century
Had his jaw Broken by and otherwise mediocre Ken Norton
Got two decison over Norton that some would say are gifts

Rocky Marciano:
Whent back the the amatuers after four pro fights and lost- some feel tainting his "undefeated" record
Got what some feel is a gift decision over Roland Lastarza
Never beat a decent fighter that would be a modern heavy

etc. etc.

 

Oddly enough, the desolate state of heavyweight in recent years (and through to the present) actually helps accelerate the retrospective appreciation of Lewis - here in the US and in general.

People are so bummed out about there not being a clear champion (which won't change any time soon - even if one of the brothers fights Haye, they aren't fighting each other) that it creates an atmosphere of nostalgia for when there was one...even though bitching about the division was just as en vogue in the 1990's (and 80's...and so on and so forth).

Last night I was at a party and this dude started chatting about boxing when it came up in conversation. Rather than tip my hand as a junkie right away, I held my tongue to see what he had to say - and it was the typical casual fan POV: corruption among promoters ruined the sport, it will never regain its place in the mainstream, the UFC took away too much of the fanbase, these days nobody has a name except Pacquiao and Mayweather, the heavyweight fighters are too poorly conditioned and the smaller fighters don't score enough knockouts so only 160-175 is ever any fun to watch...etc. When he got on the topic of heavyweights and the clarity of championship identity in particular (which, like most, he held as symptomic of boxing's overall health) he asked "when was the last time everybody really knew who the biggest and baddest man on the planet was?". I quickly replied "Lennox, yeah?" and after mulling it over for a moment he assented.

I say this as someone who believes Wladimir Klitschko to be not only the best h2h heavyweight active right now, but the most proven. I've rated him over his brother since before the latter's comeback and have continued to do so...and would pick him in the unlikely event they ever met. I also don't believe the Haye hype. Nonetheless - the average person knew when Lennox Lewis was the champion. Outside of diehard boxing circles (and parts of Europe) very few people are even aware that Wladimir Klitschko holds a world title belt (let alone two and a half). That's the difference.