Willard (Johnson fight) vs. Jeffries (Corbett 1)

It wouldn't be so bad if he didn't accompany such statements with pompous lines like "if you really knew/study boxing" and "I was around then."
He once referred to his involvement in the sport and I asked him in what capacity he was involved? Boxer,trainer,cornerman,manager? He didn't reply. No one knows everything, for example I'm an average poster no expert,and I have learned a lot here,and hopefully that will continue.

 

Not many admit to that on here mcvey. That you can always learn something new and no one knows everything. I myself have picked up so much knowledge whilst being on here, even though I've been following boxing 30 odd years. It takes a mature guy to say there's always something new to learn.

 

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some points

1--Jeff had the much more consistent career. These two were champions only about 15 years apart, so a lot of folks must have seen both fight. I have never read any old-timer thinking Willard was the better. With so little film of Jeff, I think the opinions of writers who saw them stands as worthwhile evidence.

2--While there is plenty of criticism of Jeff for beating old men, Willard had pretty close to a one-fight career with his rep resting almost totally on outlasting a 37 year old Johnson.

3--Much is made of Willard surviving Johnson's punches, but did Johnson stop any major fighter after the Jeffries bout in 1910? I don't think so. The Flynn fight was stopped by the police. Moran went the distance. So did Battling Johnson. I think it legit to ask how much punch Johnson had left. So my take is however much one wants to put down Jeff's power, it is reasonable to consider a prime Jeff way above the 37 year old Johnson as a puncher.
Jeff might not be Dempsey, but Willard didn't survive Dempsey.

4--off the Ruhlin fight, I think Jeffries just hammers Willard to the body. I guess the question is would Jeff be vulnerable to uppercuts from Willard like he was from Johnson? And would Willard last taking the body punishment he is likely to take from Jeffries?

I think Jeffries wears Willard down and eventually stops him.

 

Eventually but not in 12 rounds!

 

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I know everyone says it was "hotter than hell" in Havana in 1915, so I studied the rather extensive film yesterday, and also the films of the Johnson-Jeffries and Dempsey-Willard fights, and

I think the heat thing about the Havana fight might be largely a myth. Now any fairly warm temperature is going to seem "hot" to guys going 26 rounds, I'm certain, but

The film of the Johnson-Jeffries fight on Jully 4, 1910 shows a largely white backdrop behind the fighters. Most of the crowd is in shirtsleeves. The referee is in shirtsleeves. The guys who pick up Jeff in the 15th are in shirtsleeves. There are suits, but they are rare. While 100 degrees F is tossed around, and might be true, the average temperature high for Reno in July is 92 F.

The Toledo fight on July 4, 1919 is similar. Mostly shirtsleeves with only a few suit-coats worn.

But the fight in Havana on APRIL 5, 1915 is quite different. The crowd is in the background is dark, and the film is clear enough that one can clearly see that most of the crowd is in suit-coats. The referee, who is quite overweight, is wearing a vest, and despite the supposed oppressive heat, seems to have no problem moving about the ring for 26 rounds, with his clothing showing no signs of sweat stains. So, just off the film, I would raise the issue of how warm it really was.

I did a bit of research, and Havana averages a daily high of 82 F for March, and 84 F for April from the source I found. The temperature seems to be fairly stable because of the sea, dropping only to the sixties at night.

Bottom line guess--I have read a ton of "it was over 100" claims in later articles, but my guess is it was in the 70's at the start of the fight and in the low 80's by the end. Note that Willard arrived in the ring wearing what looks like a wool pullover.

And another point--going 25 rounds with Sharkey under the obviously oppressive arc lights needed for indoor filming in 1899 by Jeffries might be actually the more impressive stamina feat. Off what Hollywood actors had to say about working under the arc lights required for the old Technicolor cameras, the heat from these sort of lights was like an oven.

Watching the film, another fact stood out. Johnson was really overweight. Fat is hanging over his trunks. He was weighed in the ring (on film) and apparently weighed 225.

 

"Do you realize how much more brutal the 100+ degree heat and 100% humidity"

Well, as I pointed out in a separate thread, Havana averages daily highs of 82 F in March and 84 F in April. A 100 + F day on April 5 would be very unusual.

My bottom line is look at the film. If the heat was as stifling as you say, why was the crowd wearing suits. Most were in shirtsleeves in Reno. Willard arrives in the ring wearing what looks like a wool pullover. The ref wears a vest and doesn't seem to tire and sweat up over 26 rounds, and he is quite overweight and middle-aged.

I know there are a ton of sources which say it was "hotter than hell" but it seems to me it was probably more difficult to go 25 rounds under the arc lights required for indoor filming like Jeffries did than outdoors at Havana in the early Spring.

*Willard was well-conditioned for the Johnson fight, but Johnson certainly doesn't appear to be. Besides being 37, he is visibly flabby about the middle. I don't see the argument that Willard outlasting this version of Johnson is strong evidence he would have outlasted a well-trained, 25 year old Jeffries? How can we be certain a 25 year old Jeff might not have also outlasted the Havana Johnson? For that matter, I think it very possible that if the Moran fight was for 45 rounds, Moran might have ended up outlasting Johnson and winning. Willard didn't do any better than Moran over the first 20 rounds.

 

I don't know what the humidity is in Toledo in July and I 'll let you know about the humidity in Havana when I visit in April next year.Suffice to say it was Willard who said it was" hotter than hell" not others.
Johnson and Jess were in the ring for 26 rds that's 78 minutes of fighting plus 25 minutes between ,plus the time before the fight began,and Johnson was 37 years old and ,as you say fat and ill -trained.

I'd say the most impressive feat in the Jeffries v Sharkey fight would be Sharkey carrying the fight to Jeffries for the entire fight despite being significantly outweighed.Some reports of the Moran fight state he was almost at the end of his tether against the fat Johnson,I'd guess both were knackered at the finish.

 

Give me time to respond to your full thread. The temperature thing is something I just yesterday noticed. Yes, there were guys in Reno wearing suits, but MOST weren't. That backdrop behind Johnson and Jeffries is white because most are in shirtsleeves. Almost everyone in Havana is wearing suits. Look at the film. If it was this oppressively hot, why did they keep their coats on? Seems odd to me.

Humidity--I agree that probably the humidity is much higher at Havana, but we don't really know what the humidity was on this particular day, do we? From what I've read (never been there) Havana has a dry season, which would include April, and a rainy season, the summer. Is the humidity sky high during the dry season?

But make no mistake, the average temperature high in Reno in July is about 10 degrees hotter than Havana in April. I also think the 100 F talk about the Reno fight is probably an exaggeration also. Who carries a thermometer about with them to know the exact temperatures.

 

"What is the basis for thinking Jeffries has the power to stop Willard?"

Well, what actually makes you think Willard was all that tough to stop. Of his 34 listed fights at box rec, he was stopped 3 times. That is not a spectacularly durable record. For all the criticism of Jeff's punching power, he did stop 16 men in his 22 listed fights. In comparison, Gunboat Smith stopped 38 out of 140, Moran 31 out of 68, and Johnson 36 out of 96. If you want to make the case for Dempsey (strong) and Firpo (less convincing) as bigger punchers, okay, but Willard didn't last with them. He was old, I'll concede.

You can make the argument that Jeff never KO'd anyone as big as Willard, but this is a negative argument made from a lack of evidence. Like my analogy of a jaguar not sharing range with moose and therefore concluding that jaguars could not prey on moose if they shared range. Just not entirely convincing. If Dempsey or Firpo had not fought Willard, you could argue that there was no evidence they could stop him, and you'd be correct, but in the event they did stop him, Dempsey putting him down with his first serious punch. The career stats point to Jeff being a bigger puncher than Smith or Moran, or any version of Johnson, and certainly the old and fat one of Havana. I think it would be equally fair to say there is no evidence Willard could survive a puncher of Jeff's level, as he never did. The two that were at that level, Dempsey and Firpo, stopped him.

"Willard and Douglas"

The difference is that Douglas beat a young Mike Tyson, and was winning all the way except for the knockdown which he survived. Willard simply lasted in a finish fight with an aged champion who was visibly in poor condition. If the fight had been scheduled for 20 or 25 rounds, Johnson would have won a decisive decision. In fairness to Willard, Johnson being ahead might be somewhat due to Willard playing a waiting game. But Willard seems always to have been fairly easy to outpoint, so who knows?

"smart Willard"

You are assuming that Jeffries would box Willard like Johnson did. But Jeff's style in its own way is more like Dempsey's, only designed for a long fight rather than a quick win. I think he plows forward like he did with Ruhlin and goes with that left to the body and eventually the chin. As for Willard's power, what was his next biggest KO after Johnson. Floyd Johnson? Probably. And what does that prove? Everyone who fought him or saw him seems to have thought that whatever else, Jeff could take it. I think the argument that Willard stops Jeff is based mainly on his size and his therefore supposed terrific punching power.

I think Jeff is more durable and punched harder, would be the younger and quicker man, and also had the grit to win fights when things were not going well for him, something we don't know about Willard, really.

If Jeff was foolish enough to try to fight Willard at long range, your analysis might prove true, but I think his natural style would be to force his way in close and hammer to the body. Certainly there are unanswered questions about whether Willard would prove too big and strong for Jeff in close,

but for me the likely winner is Jeffries.

 

Oh come on! Apart from Dempsey and Firpo ,[ when Jess was an old man,] who droppedWillard? Gunboat Smith said he hit him with his Sunday punch and nothing happened! Johnson,the next day getting his purse fromCurley said," I didnt think there was a man capable of taking my shots if I really went after him." Willard had a top chin.