Willard vs Johnson. 35 + Min. Several rounds shown

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jan 30, 2015.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    Willard vs Johnson. 35 + Min.

    Several rounds shown ( 1, 12, 14, 17, 19, & others )

    I would be interested to see scorecards on the shown rounds. Is anyone game?

    I'll post card later later.

    * Quick observation, Willard straight long shots, and body shots at a distance score in many of the shown rounds. Johnson is better up close thanks to faster hands, but Willard makes him look like a middleweight, so Johnson’s clinching and hitting tactics do not work. It's a close fight on the shown rounds / footage.

    [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74dnCeXI8MM[/url]
     
  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,733
    29,083
    Jun 2, 2006
    "The more things alter---------"
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    Didn't take you long to respond. I am interested in how you scored the rounds on the shown footage. The film isn't going to lie.
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,733
    29,083
    Jun 2, 2006
    Neither did the referee who stated if the fight had been over 20 rounds he would have scored Johnson the winner.

    Hate sure does do some funny things to people.:verysad
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007
    Almost impossible to see if a lot of those punches are going in properly. Scorecards probably aren't going to mean very much given the quality of the film.

    Anyone see a three punch combo?
     
  6. WhyYouLittle

    WhyYouLittle Stand Still Full Member

    1,372
    21
    Jul 13, 2012
    I agree. Blurry as f*ck. Even watching frame by frame won't do.
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    Does hate prevent you from scoring the shown rounds here?:patsch

    If it was 20 rounds, one would presume Willard would have pressed more often for the finish.

    If your too gun-shy to score the rounds so be it.

    I think this film could illuminate some misconceptions about the competitiveness of the fight long before the knockout.

    After watching it, my respect has gone up a bit for Willard as a boxer. Most media clips today show Willard as a 37 year old man who had not fought for 3 years vs Dempsey.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    I can see who's throwing more, who's landing more, who's controlling the tempo more often, and who's backing the other guy up more often.

    A modern fight is scored by who lands more, who lands more hard punches, who controls the action, and defense. I think the film is clear enough to score on the above criteria.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,067
    Mar 21, 2007
    Well, you've better eyes than me then. I can't see which of those punches are flush, which are cuffed, which are ridden, which are glanced off the wrist, which go in behind, i can't hear the punches going in I can't see which punches are being picked and i've no idea what's going on inside. Far too hard.

    My guess: you'll see Willard land punches that McVey won't. And McVey will see Johnson land punches that you won't. Because you can basically see what you want to see with that footage.
     
  10. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    15,428
    8,875
    Oct 8, 2013
    Willard fought a smart fight there is no doubt. Johnson was past his best there is no doubt.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,733
    29,083
    Jun 2, 2006
    I'm not even going there, this is a guy who states Jeffries was level with Johnson after 10rds
    He could see Johnson had a black eye in the Ketchel fight :lol:
    Moran deserved a draw with Johnson ,[although he has only seen half a dozen full rounds of the 20 rds fight.]
    Walcott deserved the win against Louis first time ,where again he has never seen the full fight.
    Waste of time and energy
    Who gives a flying f**k what he thinks ?
    Once a c**t, always a c**t.
     
  12. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

    10,974
    5,432
    Feb 10, 2013
    I have what I believe to be the longest version in existence of this fight. The most common film of this fight runs about 45 minutes. Oddly this version of the film has several editing mistakes, for example the round shown as round 25 is actually round 22. The three versions all have different pre fight footage edited out from the original theatrical long version. This pre-fight footage runs a little over 21 minutes. Of the fight we have rounds 1, 2, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, and 26. In the common version there is very little post fight footage. This shows scenes in the ring immediately after the fight and a little bit of the audience. This runs about 2 mins. The long version has about five minutes worth of post fight footage. This now shows the footage of scenes in the ring after the fight including an extended segment, then Willard leaving Cuba on a steamship, crowds greeting Willard in the United States at various whistle stops, Willard shaking hands with Bob Fitzsimmons in Washington D.C., and finally Willard "showing the hands that brought back the title." All in all the long version runs about 1 hour and 14 minutes.

    Johnson tries really hard and often looks like an angry terrier going after Willard and smacking him around. He lands some really hard punches. If you watch the film you can see Johnson slowly weakening over time and by the 26th round his knees are really sagging, hes sweating a lot, and he just looks really tired and a little unsteady. Earlier in the round Willard shook Johnson up with a powerful right to the body and had been trying to set up the one-two intermittently throughout the fight but couldnt land it. With Johnson tiring Willard threw a jab and a right which backed Johnson into a corner and with nowhere left to go Willard threw the exact same combo and this time the right landed with full impact perfectly at the end of Willard's full extension. Johnson collapsed and he was out. Johnson was just out cold from a great punch which landed because Johnson was too old and tired by the 26th round. He had fought a tremendous fight and would have won on points had the fight ended in a decision. Its interesting because against Willard the one asset that Johnson had utilized so effectively for so long was basically turned inside out against him. Johnson always fought as the bigger, stronger fighter, using his strength and size to tie guys up and fight at whatever pace he wanted. Against Willard its obvious that Willard is the stronger fighter and this clinching, physical style of fighting which Johnson had cultivated over the past seven years now worked against him and served to tire him out. Being the smaller man he was also forced to take the fight to Willard, which we arent accustomed to seeing and which Johnson likely hadnt been forced to do in years. Its great fun to watch because Johnson really shows how good he was but it obviously contributed to tiring him out.

    This film is really illustrative for both guys. For Johnson it shows how clever he was in mapping out an effective strategy to deal with a guy who was as big and strong as Willard with such a reach. It also shows that he could fight when he really wanted or had to rather than that lazy style he relied on in so many fights. He is also a deadly accurate puncher. Its interesting because he rarely misses. He doesnt throw a punch, or a flurry, unless its going to land (I always kind of like that style). Willard is a different story. Willard seems to gain confidence over the course of the fight and even seems to improve in technique. He shows a lot of heart and determination, hes also big and strong, and has underrated power. He relaxes as the fight progresses and starts to use his size more effectively. That being said, his defense is porous at best. He tries at times to parry punches or catch them similar to Johnson but most often he simply takes punches and relies on his size and strength to absorb the punishment until he can tie his man up. Its easy to say that he was really made to order for Dempsey because he was essentially a catcher. Hes not terribly mobile and his wide stance inhibits quick movements. When you combine this with his poor training and conditioning for the Dempsey fight its easy to see why it was such a slaughter. Even in his prime I think Willard would have been made to order for Dempsey.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,733
    29,083
    Jun 2, 2006
    I'll settle for this appraisal.:good

    Just to add that curiously enough this just might be Johnson's "finest hour" a brave fight against all the odds.



    ps It's very refreshing that Klompton, who recently vehemently reiterated he had no liking for Johnson as a man, has not allowed his opinion of his character to colour his objectivity when viewing him in action as a pugilist.:good

    If only others could remain unbiased and confine themselves to his abilities in the ring.
     
  14. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    15,428
    8,875
    Oct 8, 2013

    Very nice write up!!!
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    It’s disappointing but not surprising to learn the film has editing issues and sometimes does not list the rounds in chronological order. I have seen the round 25 before and Willard nearly folded Johnson in two with a hard body shot.

    I agree with you on Willard's defense. It’s rather poor, as is his balance. He needs his feet planted to be effective.

    Despite these limitations, Willard's reach and power put Johnson out of business on the outside. ( Moran to a lesser extent on film was also better on the outside ) No fighter does something he does want to do, including Johnson. You're right, the reach and size disparity forced Johnson's hand. And Johnson does try. Whomever believes Johnson's lie that it was fixed should watch this fight. He clearly tries, but his power isn't enough to hurt Willard. This film likely prove's that Johnson would never match up well vs. a big man with skills. With a 74" reach and mediocre power he has a tall order to face. Johnson's clinching and rule bending tactics do not worth either when facing a fresh man bigger than he was.

    A point I wanted to debate on was how close was the fight in the 26 rounds. On the shown footage on the link here, I felt Willard was a little better in the 1st and 14th. Johnson was better in the 12th.

    Was Willard’s Johnson’s best title opponent? Clearly I think he was.