Willie Pastrano enters the matrix...

Read Sarria’s own words, and those of Pacheco and Dundee (who were there every day, unlike you, who want to rewrite history):

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0804-sarria.html

He was Ali’s masseuse as well as his conditioning guy. He basically exercised him, rather than honing his boxing skills.

Sarria: “Dundee and the sparring partners earned their money.”

Sarria also speaks of Dundee as a TRAINER long before Ali or the big names entered the picture. His testimony Is in the link above about the pre-fame Dundee coming to Cuba practically every week as a trainer. Was he just doing TV interviews there, lol?

I’ll take his word over yours.

Pacheco and Dundee amplify on Sarria’s role here. He was not the mastermind behind the curtain who handled the boxing part of training:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Sarria

Man, what kind of freaking ego do you have that you think you know more than the actual person himself and the eyewitnesses who were there every day?

 

Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali on Dundee:

https://www.npr.org/2012/02/04/146405577/angelo-dundee-more-than-just-a-good-cornerman

You can see the Ali portion that is transcribed in the link above on video here at around the 3:05 mark:

This content is protected

Now both say this: Dundee COACHED them. He didn’t train them and show them how to fight. They knew that already (as Olympic medalists) but this is where @klompton2 wants to minimize that role where they — two of the greatest of all time who were THERE, this is their actual lives and careers we’re talking about — maximize and underscore it’s importance.

Because that’s what a trainer of an elite boxer does. Bill Belichick doesn’t draft someone in the first round and get him at practice the first day and tell a receiver, ‘Now this is how you run a route,’ or a quarterback ‘This is how you take a snap.’ He and his staff hone those skills, just as Dundee did. They teach them strategy. They teach how to take that skill set and WIN.

Which is what they’re paid for.

But I want to be fair to @klompton2 — please find me a clip where Ali says Sarria was his actual trainer who taught him how to fight while Dundee was just a mouthpiece. No, here he says Dundee was “one of the greatest” trainers. Show me where Leonard said Dundee had nothing to do with his success and there was a secret Wizard of Oz behind the scenes who actually showed him how to beat Thomas Hearns and Wilfred Benitez and to adjust his game to make Roberto Duran quit.

Surely they let the cat out of the bag at some point, right? I mean, Klompton wants us to believe this is a conspiracy that all these world champions participated in to make it look like Angelo Dundee was actually good at his job when really it was someone else who was pulling the strings, so there must be evidence of this.

I’ll wait patiently.

 

Well I’ll be damned. Seems Dundee and Whitey Esnault BOTH trained Willie Pastrano starting when Willie was still in high school:

https://64parishes.org/entry/willie-pastrano

But, but, @klompton2 says Willie did it all and Angelo just did interviews. It’s almost like he’s wrong ... again.

 

Again, jackass, did Ali, Leonard, Ellis, Pastrano et al have a developed style before Dundee or not? The answer, as you well know (now that youve been taught) is yes. So dont call the kettle black when you cant admit that Dundee didnt craft those guys in some imaginary Dundee style. The one marquee fighter that Ali had the most influence on prior to Ali was Basilio, and even then Dundee was a hired a gun. Tell me how Basilio fought like Leonard and Ali or did Dundee just develop this imaginary signature style after Basilio? As John stated above the Dundees had a very polished operation and lots of contacts all over the country which acted as a magnet for talent. Only a moron would say their influence was nothing more than local just like only a moron would claim that Dundee crafted Ali, Pastrano, Ellis, Dupas, and Rodriguez’ styles. Every single one of those guys already had their style down by the time Dundee spoke his first words to them. Thats not even debateable as you can see it clearly on film in every case. Dundee simply came in and polished their strategy in the final weeks before a contest, period. He even admits as much in his autobiography. If you want to sit there and believe Dundee taught Ali and Pastrano footwork, or Rodriguez and Basilio how to hook off the jab be my guest but he didnt, not by a long shot. Dundee was essentially a trainer in the same sense that Lou Duva was, which is to say they were a manager first, a strategist second, and a trainer in the traditional sense somewhere around 17th.

 

Jimmy Ellis went 15-6 as a middleweight (all losses to top fighters) and decided to leave Bud Bruner and wrote a letter to Angelo Dundee, who agreed to manage and train him.

Ellis became a heavyweight world champ under Dundee’s tutelage.

Yeah, taking an also-ran middleweight to the heavyweight title is done all the time.

Dundee is not overrated.

 

Exactly, Esneault, you know, the guy who was famous for training slick defensive movers like the Docusens, the Dupas brothers, Pastrano while Dundee was training Basilio who used his face as a catchers mitt... So you tell me, genius, when I say Dundee wasnt responsible for those fighters styles what exactly was incorrect about my statement? You said that they fought in the Dundee style. I pointed out that they fought in that style before Dundee ever met them. Thats an undeniably true statement. For some reason you cant stop denying it. But according to you my ego is getting in the way. To me this is no different than all of the stories morons like yourself latch onto in this sport. You read the same bull**** over and over until it undeniably becomes fact. God forbid you drop your slavish devotion to such nonsense and realize that merely being able to look for snippets that kinda sorta jive with your narrative doesnt make you an expert in anything other than getting your keyboard a little more coated in orange cheeto dust.

 

Yup, its pretty remarkable how a local trainer with no connections got a light heavyweight into the prestigious WBA elimination tournament based on a win over career LHW Johnny Persol. He was just THAT GOOD And yeah, Ellis having been trained by Ali’s amateur trainers and having been his sparring partner since they were kids just miraculously developed a new proto Ali style under Dundee... not.

 

You get so angry when you get exposed. Ohhh, you called me a jackass. Look in the mirror pal.

I’ve given you examples in the words of people who were there. You literally tried to claim Sarria was the trainer who taught Ali and others. Which is absolutely not the case.

Yes, Angelo’s fighters, for the most part — the ones he worked with longest — had a certain style that is unmistakable. Did they already know how to fight? Sure. They didn’t walk into the Fifth Street Gym and say ‘teach me how to tie my shoes.’

Angelo HONED their styles and taught them things that they didn’t know, which was how to apply those things. Do you think the Ali who made his pro debut did not learn anything by the time he fought Frazier? He ran around and flitted out a jab for the most part, but you can see over time he learns to move and then plant his feet and throw. Reach into your film collection and show me Willie Pastrano’s style before he started working with Dundee while still in high school. Ray Leonard improved his style under Dundee’s watchful eye.

I’ve posted a link that shows without question that Dundee was working with Pastrano as early as high school. He trained in the summer in Miami when he wasn’t in school — his Louisiana trainer apparently thought he would improve by being in Miami working with Dundee when he could. Wonder why?

Angelo was with Ali at fights and between fights in the gym. Even your precious film shows that. There came a time when he worked with fighters just for a few weeks for strategy and finishing work as a hired gun — because fighters knew he was so good it was worth paying him for that, btw — just as did Manny Stewart and George Benton and Eddie Futch and other great trainers.

Is it your contention that Eddie Futch taught every fighter he ever worked with how to throw every punch? That’s preposterous. Does it make him less of a great trainer that he instead taught them how to apply their skills? That’s what trainers of professional athletes do.

Dundee had another mark of greatness in that he wasn’t a cookie-cutter trainer. Yes, he could help a guy like Basilio improve without trying to make him fight like Pastrano. Which is why they brought him in, to help the guy take his skill set and become better by better applying it and tweaking it.

Did the Dundees have contacts? Sure they did. If you promote fights like Chris Dundee did, you’re bringing in talent from all over and you meet managers and other promoters and trainers and make relationships. Angelo was taking trips to Cuba with fighters as a trainer before he was ever known, making contacts there. Do you think other people in the boxing game do not make relationships nor develop contacts? Do you think Chris could pick up the phone and say, ‘Hey, there’s this really good fighter, if they cut in my brother for a percentage can you make him a main event fighter in Madison Square Garden and get him a title shot that he honestly doesn’t deserve?’ Hell no. Which is what you’re implying, that the Dundees down in Miami had such juice in boxing that they could pull strings around the country and the world and make things happen if you gave them some money, but that Angelo had no other skill and just got paid so Chris could make phone calls to make things happen.

The very people you are making up stories about have said publicly that what you’re saying was not true. The people who were there have said what you’re alleging is not true. Sarria never once claims he was Ali’s real trainer, but what does he know when the great @klompton2 without citing a single source says it was otherwise.

Look at what Jimmy Ellis accomplished before and after Dundee and tell me he had no positive influence. Show me other trainers who: a) worked with the greatest heavyweight of all time; AND b) worked with the next big, transcendent star to come along; AND c) took a journeyman middleweight and made him a heavyweight champion; AND d) worked with a guy like Willie Pastrano from high school age to world championship; AND e) was so good at what he did that some of the top fighters in the world would hire him to come in for their biggest fights to map out a game plan.

Find me that guy and tell me he’s overrated.

The sad thing here is that you do research but cannot connect the dots of what you find and come to a correct conclusion (you see film of Sarria doing what a gym manager does and conclude that he was Ali’s trainer), that you literally reject the words of the people who were there (including the ones you’re making claims about) to try to stick to your narrative when they’re TELLING you it wasn’t the way you want it to be; and you actually think you know a lot about this.

 

Again, Dundee helped him hone and evolve that style.

Those previous coaches had him 15-6 and unable to beat good middleweights. Dundee made him a world champ.

You really see Ali in the Olympics and see him against Frazier and see no difference whatsoever? Give me an honest answer to this question. You cannot because you’d have to admit you’re wrong and that Dundee did have a positive influence as a trainer and you’d rather die than admit what you see right in front of your own eyes.

That difference is the Dundee influence.

 

Esnault sent Willie to Miami while he was still in high school to learn under Dundee. STILL IN HIGH SCHOOL. I guess you think Pastrano was a finished produce when he was a chubby 12-year-old and he never learned anything after that.

Why did Esnault send him to Miami to train under Dundee? What did he know that you don’t?

 

Great moment by Pastrano. Moore was still excellent fighter at that age, he couldn't be outboxed easy at that age.

 

Ali: Dundee was one of the greatest trainers ever.

Leonard: Same.

Sarria: Dundee earned his money.

Klompton: They don’t know what they’re talking about. I do. Dundee was not a good trainer.

 

Do you really want to stand by this, @klompton?

You claim that Luis Sarria was the real trainer of Muhammad Ali.

Now I’ve posted a link to Sarria’s account of what his role was in Ali’s camp, and he never says he was the trainer.

I’ve posted a link to a quote from Ferdie Pacheco, who was there all along, who says he was there for massages and conditioning (an important role, but not head trainer or even assistant trainer).

I’ve posted the same link in which Angelo Dundee credits Sarria but backs up Ferdie’s account of what Sarria’s role was.

NONE of them say Sarria ever trained Ali. Even SARRIA doesn’t say he trained Ali.

I’ve also posted video of Muhammad Ali saying Dundee was “one of the greatest” trainers ever. He has a perfect opportunity to say, ‘Well Luis Sarria was my real trainer,’ but he doesn’t.

Because it’s 100 percent not true.

Will you admit you are wrong here? Can you post any source that backs you up on this claim? Or do you know more than everyone who was there and just have not a single source to back it up?

You need to admit you’re wrong. Admit that you made it up and lied to this forum.

 

You say Pastrano was this great example of the Dundee style and somebody points out that he wasnt and you lose your ****. Pastrano was trained by Whitey Esneault. Period. He had been since he was 12 years old. Pastrano turned pro at 15 and it wasnt until after that that Dundee was brought aboard. Esneault was well known for training his fighters with defensive footwork and a stick and move style. Period. Esneault sent Pastrano to Dundee because they couldnt get fights and the Dundees in addition to promoting their own fights in Miami were connected and could get fights. In addition to that Esneault didnt travel because he was crippled and because he had a sick wife and so Dundee was hired to work his fighters corners. Thats what I know, that you dont. Hence the hired gun comment which you cannot seem to wrap your pinhead around. Pastrano had been boxing for Esneault exclusively for five years when he went to work with Dundee. Go read what Leonard wrote about Dundee. Hired gun, brought into camp in the last couple of weeks to work on strategy. Its why Mike Trainer cut Dundee's purse down because he categorically WAS NOT earning the money they were paying him. Go read what Dundee wrote, he was often nothing more than the hired gun. Its funny you can quote Sarria saying "Dundee earned his money" which I never denied, but you cant explain to me how if Sarria was doing all of the conditioning, all of the day to day training, overseeing sparring, working on the mechanics of boxing day in and day out why I would call Dundee anything other than a hired gun brought in to fine tune and work on strategy and not give Sarria the credit he deserved? Even Pastrano credited Esneault with being his trainer, called him the greatest trainer there ever was, and referred to Dundee as his "manager." Dupas, who introduced Pastrano to Esneault said the same thing. Why would I take fighters like Ali, Ellis, Pastrano, and Dupas, who all had developed styles that didnt change marketedly AFTER Dundee met them and give Dundee credit for crafting those styles like you did? But Im lying about all of this... Sure.

 

You haven’t cited one source that Sarria was Ali’s trainer.

You claim here that Sarria handled all the day-to-day training, oversaw all the sparring, worked on mechanics every day. Yet you have zero to back up this claim. You literally just made it up because NOT ONE PERSON WHO WAS THERE ever described it that way.

He was his masseuse and handled conditioning. That’s not head trainer.

His own words, which I’ve linked but you don’t seem to want to credit (the very guy you are talking about doesn’t back your story, you have not one source and you still won’t change your mind in the face of contracting, CITED evidence):

“I was training Luis ... and Ali spoke to me and I do not speak English. Then he told Angelo who told me Ali wanted me to massage him.”

This is when they met and communicated for the first time.

Now here is Ali, who is already in Miami and already training there, says he wants Sarria to give him a massage. Not to TRAIN him, not to show him anything, but to give him a rub-down. Now how does that translate to head trainer, lol?

Sarria did not oversee every aspect of Ali’s training like you try to paint it. I can google “Ali training” and link you dozens of pictures of ANGELO taking off gloves or hand wraps of Ali in the gym after he’s finished working out or sparring. Those were taken by Ali’s personal photographer, who was there when the newspaper and TV reporters and photographers weren’t around.

Your whole idea centers around when they would invite the media for public workouts. Which anyone who has ever been around boxing knows and can tell you isn’t like a regular, full workout that’s held behind closed doors away from prying eyes. And on these occasions, trainers usually do interviews — like Angelo does while someone else (Sarria) handles giving the guys water between rounds while they do light sparring for the cameras.

Do you believe that when the press wasn’t around Angelo sat in the corner waiting for a wandering reporter to happen in so he could give interviews?

Answer these:

1) Do you have any source whatsoever for your assertion that Luis Sarria was Ali’s trainer? His primary, head boxing trainer, not his conditioning coach and masseuse — do you have a single source for this?

2) Can you supply one quote from Ali where he says Sarria was his trainer?

3) Can you supply one quote from Sarria saying he was Ali’s trainer?

4) Can you cite one single witness who was at the Fifth Street Gym during that period who asserts that Sarria was Ali’s trainer?

I’ll answer for you: no, you cannot.

But I can give you another source who define’s the roles of Dundee and Sarria clearly. His name is Hubert Mizell. He worked for the Associated Press in Miami during this period. Covering Muhammad Ali, rapidly becoming one of the most recognizable sports personalities in the world, became his beat. You probably don’t know what that means, so I’ll help — he was the reporter assigned by the world’s largest press agency to cover Ali on a daily basis. His JOB was to cover Ali.

So, apart from the media day circuses from which you look at footage to make wrong conclusions, he popped in the gym regularly. Need a story? Go to the Fifth Street Gym and grab Ali or someone from his camp. And newspapers across the country and maybe around the world would run your story.

So don’t take my word for it.

Don’t take Ali’s.

Or Sarria himself.

Or Pacheco.

Take an impartial observer, who was merely recording what he saw:

https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1993/02/19/champ/

Afraid to read? (I don’t blame you — a so-called ‘professional author’ who can’t break up a simple message board post with paragraphs or write proper sentences probably doesn’t read either, especially when you know it’s going to again prove you wrong.) I’ll make it simple for you:

He identifies Angelo Dundee as Ali’s trainer.

He devotes two paragraphs to Sarria: AFTER Ali works out, he goes into a side room and lays down on a massage table and Sarria works his magic as a masseuse.

Not a single word about Sarria conducting, directing, running or in any way taking part in taking Ali through his workout.

You’re just wrong. You can’t even find a single source to back you up. The principles who were there all say it was different. And you will not admit it.

You are hung up on the ‘hired gun’ comment. You forget the word ‘often’ in front of it. When he worked with a guy for two weeks before a title fight, he was a hired gun. Same as Manny Steward was with many guys. And every other top trainer past or present. Arcel made a living doing that and almost nothing but til he latched onto Duran.

But Dundee wasn’t a ‘hired gun’ with Leonard or Ali or other guys with whom he had contracts. He wasn’t a one-and-done guy with Ali — he was there from start to finish. With Leonard until they got into a pay dispute late in Ray’s career and Dundee walked: because Trainer and Leonard felt it wasn’t fair to give him a percentage of multi-million-dollar purses and wanted to cap it. Not because they felt he had no value, just not a percentage of huge purses.

Yes, I 100 percent stand by the idea that Dundee was able to hone talent and mold it and that he utilized a certain style that included footwork and a more stick-and-move approach. Most of the fighters he worked with NOT on a hired-gun basis adopted it.

It’s hilarious that you don’t acknowledge his influence over Willie Pastrano and seem to think Willie was a finished produce by age 12 or 13. Yet you also insist a crippled man could teach him footwork and that Angelo taught him nothing. I gave you a source: they BOTH trained Willie from high school age on. They worked out a contract and were partners.

You say Willie turned pro (thus getting a fight) but only went to Angelo because they “couldn’t get fights.” Yet Willie had five fights in seven months New Orleans as a very young pro before moving to Miami for the summer to learn from the master, and continued to get fights in New Orleans after that — fact: Chris Dundee wasn’t promoting all those New Orleans fights. Cite a source. Again, you cannot. Because there is not one.

One more challenge besides providing me a source for Sarria being Ali’s trainer and answering those very simple questions I asked above: can you with intellectual honesty look at a film of Ali in the Olympics and then look at the Fight of the Century and tell me Ali is exactly the same fighter, that he hasn’t learned to sit down on his punches more, that he hasn’t changed his punching axis at all? That you see NO difference?

You completely made up the idea of Luis Sarria being Ali’s trainer and lied to this board knowing it’s not true.

God knows how much how your ‘research’ in your self-published book was also made up.