Willie Pastrano enters the matrix...

@klompton2 Please address my questions above.

Please cite one source, Mr. Research Expert, that Luis Sarria was Ali’s trainer.

But I’ve got to point this out. You seem to think every boxer is a finished product by the time they get to Angelo Dundee, that they never adapt or improve after that.

Even a high school kid like Willie Pastrano is 100 percent set in his style and does nothing to alter or improve upon it.

That shows just how little you know about boxing. Go find me footage of kids who start boxing at 12 when they are 15 ... and then show me what they look like at 25 and tell me you cannot see any changes. But you think they are set in concrete at that time.

(I’m guessing because you haven’t improved as a writer since grade school or maybe junior high, you don’t believe others can do so, but I digress ...)

NOW AT THE SAME TIME you seem to insist that Luis Sarria took an Ali who you at one point say was a finished product by the time he turned pro and that Sarria was teaching him things and making him better.

Well you’re 100 percent wrong and have ZERO sources for Sarria being a trainer, but how can that be? What role did Sarria play as head trainer if he (a) was never the chief guy in the corner and (b) Ali had nothing to learn fro the Olympics on?

You can’t have it both ways. Of course you’re wrong all the way around and your only claim to being right is that you think it’s that way because not one person living or dead ever uttered a word about Sarria being head trainer, just like you don’t want to acknowledge Dundee had anything to do with Pastrano even though the guy was training with him while still in high school, but it’s an interesting (and I’m sure for you challenging) intellectual exercise to explain how Dundee can’t help a guy improve in any way but Sarria is the magician who taught Ali to box after the Olympics without altering or improving his style one iota.

 

The difference between you and I is I didnt give Sarria credit for mapping out Ali's style or Pastranos style anyone elses. I gave him credit for training those guys, which he did. You can call it "conditioning" all you want but when a guy is overseeing all aspects of the training down to technique hes a ****ing trainer. Dundee didnt do that, but he was sure happy to take credit for it.

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Wow would you look at that? All of those names that Dundee is given credit for and worse you claim he molded their styles and in reality it was somebody else who laid that groundwork...

This is the part where you slink off and hide like Harry did when I schooled his ass a couple of days ago.

Now, you can answer my questions: Why would I give Dundee credit for patenting a style used by Pastrano when it was Esneault who trained him and Dundee was merely a hired gun? Hmmm? You want to address that little chestnut that started your little tantrum? I guess not, you want to make it about something else. Sorry, I dont play that game. Stick to the original point.

If you care to dig deep enough youll find that Esneault ended up hating Dundee because he stole both Pastrano and Dupas later in their careers (they both went downhill immediately). Dupas went back to Esneault and Pastrano was very public that he wished he had stayed with Esneault and that his career and life might have turned out different had he. But the fact is that you just got mad because you read something factual that didnt dovetail with your preconceived notion which itself was based on a severe lack of knowledge of that era and the goings on.

 

You’re the one who got angry, starting with calling me a name right off the bat when I said, simply, “I disagree.”

You provided a lot of nice little clips. None of them establish that Willie Pastrano did not improve nor have his style tweaked by Dundee.

I agree that Angelo probably borrowed from many sources in developing the style he taught that was used by so many of his pupils — most of the greats are not innovators so much as masters of taking the best from a lot of different things. The best football coaches aren’t necessarily ones who came up with an entire new offense, but who blended things from different offenses or defenses. Dundee was like that.

The fact is, Dundee was working with Pastrano AS TRAINER while he was still in high school. You absolutely have not disputed that, nor can you. He moved to Miami and Esneault did not make the trip with him. And yes those are still formative years and yes Dundee helped mold his gifts to develop his style.

Esneault, the Cuban influence Dundee first encountered while taking fighters to box in that country before Castro shut it down, lot of other things probably played into the development. No argument there.

I also never disputed and have no idea why you think it’s a big deal that Sarria did not speak English. It’s in the quote I cited when he tells about how Ali approached him for a massage (and not to train him lol).

If I post 100 clips that all say Angelo Dundee lived in Miami, that’s about the same as you posting repeated clips that say Sarria did not speak English.

Nor did I ever dispute that Sarria trained other fighters. Duh. But not ONE SOURCE you have cited says he trained Ali (as you’ve asserted), was in charge of training him day to day (as you’ve asserted) or was his chief technique coach (as you’ve asserted). An account of him sitting in a corner smoking a pipe and making a hand signal to tell people to do sit-ups (and not even specifically Ali) is not the same as saying he was head trainer.

What you’ve done here is throw every clip against the wall you can in hopes that no one will click them and just say ‘Well ol’ Klompty must be right because that’s a lot of links,’ even if all they say is stuff that has nothing to do with what you’ve asserted — does any of those clips say Pastrano’s style was not influenced, shaped, improved or molded by Dundee? Nope, and you know it.

You cite one part of an article quoting someone named Hebert (no first name, it’s a very common Louisiana last name though so I gather it’s a local with his panties in a wad because he got cut out of the deal because he brought nothing to the table) about Ralph Dupas signing with Dundee. And yet Dupas became a world champion under Dundee, which shows he made a good choice, and why did neither Dupas nor Esneault try to dissuade Pastrano from signing with Dundee if they thought he was a scoundrel?

I’ve asked several times now and you have studiously avoided answering:

1) Do you have a single source supporting the idea that Sarria was Ali’s head trainer (as opposed to his conditioning coach and masseuse)? So far the answer is NO.

2) Can you explain why Ali never once mentioned Sarria as his trainer in his entire life?

3) Can you explain why Sarria never claimed to be Ali’s trainer?

4) Can you explain why no one but YOU has ever made this claim?

You’re the freaking Master Researcher, yet all you’ve got is clips that say ‘Esneault was Willie’s trainer and then he went to Miami to work with Ali,’ ‘A guy named Hebert was upset that Dupas signed with Dundee,’ ‘Sarria did not speak English,’ ‘No, really, Sarria did not speak English, ‘Seriously, I’m not kidding, Sarria did not speak English.’

Oh, and also ‘Sarria is good at wrapping hands.’ You know that’s a specialized skill, right, and many fighters are particular about who they let do it ... because their hands are their livelihood and wraps protect them. (Russ Anber, a Canadian trainer of not much acclaim, has been brought in by champs around the world just to wrapt their hands, it’s a specialty like being a cut man. But of course you don’t know this because you know so little about boxing.)

That’s it? Is that the kind of information that led you to make certain conclusions about Greb in your self-published book? Because what you’ve done here is say ‘I think it was this way’ and given zero evidence, not a single quote even, to back up what you think. I imagine you finding a story saying ‘Greb takes train to New York’ and concluding that Dempsey ducked him from that. SMFH. At least try to find something that somewhat has something to do with what you’re asserting.

You obviously cannot answer my quotes in bold above. I’ve asked too many times and the best I get is a series of clips that say Sarria can’t speak English. But tell me how it is that ...

1) Dupas wasn’t a champion, he hooked up with Dundee and he became a champ (I can see how this would make his previous trainer jealous, btw, because it shows that he could only take Ralph so far)?

2) Willie Pastrano’s boxing style and skills were 100 percent set by age 15 and never changed, yet we can see improvement by watching clips over the year ... and other boxers will tell you they’ve continued to adapt and improve far beyond their 15th year?

3) Pastrano wasn’t a champion but became one after working with Dundee?

4) That the common denominator between Ali, the Greatest, and Sugar Ray Leonard, the greatest of the next generation, is Dundee ... yet according to you Dundee did nothing for them?

5) When Ray Leonard asked Ali about going pro, he said ‘go to Dundee’ and not ‘go to Sarria, the man who taught me how to box’?

And, finally, once again, will you either provide proof of your assertion that Sarria was Ali’s trainer or admit you made it up and apologize?

 

You say Dundee wasnt a hired gun for any of the guys he had contracts with. You name Leonard, who is actually the worst example for you as it lead to a big falling out when Leonard via Mike Trainer cut Dundees purse down due to him only being in camp for a limited time. For ****s sake Dundee opens the 19th chapter of his book reading the letter from Trainer which says he was concerned by Dundee's lack of time and input with Leonard. That was 1978!!! Squabbles about Dundee's lack of time in actual training continued throughout his association with Leonard. In the same book he describes Dupas and Pastrano when he first them as "they may have only been school boys but they boxed like seasoned pros." Yet you find it impossible to admit that two guys who had been boxing for over five years boxed anything like they did after meeting Dundee DESPITE the fact that thats exactly the style that Esneault was famous for. Even Basilio, who Dundee probably spent the most time with in actual training out of all of them trained in Syracuse while Dundee was living in Miami. Dundee didnt start working with Basilio until 1952 at the Baby Williams fight as you guessed it a hired gun, by that time Basilio had already fought Davey, Graham, Felton, Giosa, and Jenkins among others. It wasnt until early 1954 that Dundee was brought in again to work his corner, AS A HIRED GUN, and by that time Basilio was one of the top WW contenders.

 

I never said Dundee wasnt employed by those guys when they became champions did? So drop the straw man argument. Again, Im not going to bite on something I never said. Nice attempt though, A for effort. I find it hilarious that you go on arguing about how the Dundees are just local guys, nothing big etc. Then act like they just miraculously got these guys title fights. Lets just ignore the fact that Chris moved down to Miami to front shows for the IBC which is why this supposedly independent promoter starts getting plumb television dates. His brother, who had almost no experience follows him down there and suddenly within a year trainers far more established than Dundee by a damn sight are sending their fighters down there or flying him up to work with their fighters who miraculously get television dates and title shots... just after Angelo is investigated by the DA for his ties with Carbo... Yeah this amazing trainer whose biggest talent was Bill Bossio just emerged out of the ether! You ****ing idiot. As if nobody but Dundee could have taken Ali and Leonard to the title. I mean its not like an entire corporation was founded based on the promise Ali showed in the Olympics BEFORE he ever trained with Dundee... Oh wait. I mean its not like Howard Cosell went ape**** at the Olympics lauding the promise of young Ray Leonard and his star power... Oh wait. Grow up son, you are a day late and dollar short to this party and dont know jack **** what you are talking about.

 

Yes, he was “oftentimes a hired gun” as you said. That’s different from always.

A hired gun comes in for a gunfight and leaves town. Or in this case a big fight, probably a title fight. He’s hired to sharpen a guy for a few weeks and moves on to the next guy.

He didn’t move on from Leonard until well past Leonard’s off-and-on career began to decline. Does Angelo in his book (I read it some years ago) say, ‘And Mike Trainer was right. I was running a scam. I never taught Ray Leonard anything and just lined my pockets.’ No, he doesn’t. If he does quote that passage.

Dundee asserts that Trainer felt Leonard didn’t need Dundee at the percentage he was getting and long laid the groundwork to get rid of him. A lawyer sends a letter doesn’t mean what’s in the letter is true. It means he wants a paper trail to say ‘see I’ve been saying this.’

Proof is in the pudding: did Leonard and Trainer fire Dundee in 1978? No they did not. So what the actual **** does that letter even mean? It means they assessed the situation and decided Dundee was worth what they were paying him at that time.

I’ll say for about the 100th time: they wanted Angelo to work for a set, capped fee and give up his percentage deal (because it makes little sense for any boxer to give up a percentage of purses getting into the $10M range millions of dollars to a trainer) and Dundee decided not to take the new terms. But they DID offer new terms and wanted to keep him on the team — never did they say ‘your services are not needed.’ It was a money dispute. That does not in any way equate to Dundee not having skills as a trainer.

I brought up all those boxers to show you a pattern you’re apparently too thick to grasp: Before Dundee they weren’t champions, after Dundee they were. It would be a hell of a coincidence that all those boxers would become champs after working with Dundee and him not to have any influence on their improvement.

Would Ali and Leonard have become champions without him? Probably. Would they have become as great as they did? I say no.

Why did people start sending their boxers to work with Angelo? Because HE WAS GREAT at training boxers. Same reason people started to send boxers to Emmanuel Steward, who just a little while before had been an amateur coach of no consequence before he started making guys into champions. Is that hard for you to understand.

Now answer me this. I’ll keep asking and you keep ducking, or better yet post some more clips that tell us Sarria did not speak English (what the actual **** was that about?):

1) Do you have a single source supporting the idea that Sarria was Ali’s head trainer (as opposed to his conditioning coach and masseuse)? So far the answer is NO.

2) Can you explain why Ali never once mentioned Sarria as his trainer in his entire life?

3) Can you explain why Sarria never claimed to be Ali’s trainer?

4) Can you explain why no one but YOU has ever made this claim?

5) Why didn’t Ali advise Leonard to go to Sarria if he was going to turn pro (being that you claim Sarria was his trainer) and instead told him to go to Dundee?

You cannot answer these simple questions. Why? Because you’d have to admit the obvious — you made it all up and you’re completely wrong.

 

The point about Sarria not speaking english is why he didnt get the credit he deserved and Dundee ****ing admitted it. Sarria was the boxing brain there, not Dundee. Sarria had the chops and the experience, not Dundee. Dundee was a glorified spit bucket carrier for his brothers stable when he suddenly blows up with all this talent because of his and Chris ability to get television dates and title shots. Period. He didnt add **** else to those guys styles. Once he got Sarria on board you actually begin to see him start to "train" fighters. Yet it was Sarria doing the training with Dundee taking the credit. Sarria was a Cuban expat that couldnt speak English. He had been a boxer and had worked with big name fighters since at the 1940s. The Herbert in that article was Felix Herbert a Louisiana congressman who was bringing those allegations to the floor. Youd know that if you knew what you were talking about. I guess its easier for you to believe that this guy, Dundee, emerged from WW2 having never boxed and doing nothing more than carrying spit buckets suddenly woke up one day as this great trainer with these great connections who despite having nothing to really show for that supposed miraculous talent starts getting plumb jobs from all over the country. Its easier to believe than the reality of the situation which was that Chris and Angelo relocated to Florida to front the IBC down there which gave them the television dates and influence to start pulling in fighters. Its not rocket science. Like good businessmen, which they were, they used that connection to steadily grow their business and net bigger fish that helped net other big fish. But you go on believing what you want. It wont change the fact that Dundee is overrated as a trainer and that Esneault, not Dundee is responsible for Dupas and Pastrano's styles or that Sarria handled the day to day training for Dundee's fighters.

 

Has anyone read Pastrano's comments about this fight in Peter Heller's book?

 

NAME ONE SOURCE that Sarria was Ali’s trainer. Him not speaking English doesn’t mean he trained Ali. That’s the most preposterous leap in logic I think I’ve ever seen.

Sarria himself in the article I linked earlier talks about Angelo working in Cuba, coming down every week, as a trainer of fighters before he was famous. You’re calling him a liar and saying Angelo didn’t know a boxing glove from a catcher’s mitt and started carrying a bucket because his brother was a successful promoter and world-class guys started showing up to sign away their future to the Brothers Dundee because otherwise you couldn’t become a champ.

(Should I give you a list of champions from that era who did not do business with the Dundees?)

Do I have to known the name of an obscure Louisiana congressman to know about boxing? That’s almost as big of a leap of logic as the one above (but not quite ... although I’m sure if this keeps going you’ll top yourself).

Were there ever any hearings, every any charges, ever any convictions that back up your assertion that Angelo Dundee was somehow mixed up in mob doings that resulted in the likes of Muhammad Ali and Ray Leonard seeking him out? Are you now saying that Willie Pastrano and Dupas and all of Dundee’s other champions were strong-armed by the mob to signing with him, or that they were unable to get fights without Dundee? (Even though the ones who didn’t turn pro with him actually did get fights.)

Your original citation as Sarria as Ali’s trainer was you had seen film in the gym when they allowed the media in and all Dundee did (when the media was there, that being the key, as they came there for interviews) was interviews. Now it’s the mob.

I don’t care if Sarria spoke Chinese or Martian, Muhammad Ali was the most chronicled guy in boxing history. He had his own personal photographer in the gym basically every day ... but I guess they told him not to take pictures of Sarria training Ali. The were other boxers, other trainers ... and not one has ever uttered a word about this.

Now you’re saying Sarria trained not just Ali but ALL of Dundee’s fighters. Why didn’t Pastrano blow the whistle and say this? Why didn’t Dupas. Ali? Are you saying that Sarria trained Leonard too?

Dundee hired Sarria because, yes, the guy was a good trainer. And because he needed a Spanish-speaking guy in the gym with the influx of Cubans in particular to the Miami area. Pretty logical if you take your tin foil hat off and think about it. And yes he worked with fighters, particularly the Spanish-speaking ones. Again, makes sense.

But find me that witness who says Sarria was Ali’s secret trainer. You can’t because there is not one.

I’m going to keep asking and you’re going to keep not answering:

1) Do you have a single source supporting the idea that Sarria was Ali’s head trainer (as opposed to his conditioning coach and masseuse)? So far the answer is NO.

2) Can you explain why Ali never once mentioned Sarria as his trainer in his entire life?

3) Can you explain why Sarria never claimed to be Ali’s trainer?

4) Can you explain why no one but YOU has ever made this claim?

 

So you never said Sarria was Ali’s trainer? That is the point I am addressing. I’ve addressed the others. I want you to back up your ridiculous claim.

Can you at least come up with some original insults? Or learn how to use the enter button to create paragraphs? I don’t even like Cheetos and I shave. I do not, however, self-publish books and then proclaim myself the greatest researcher ever and an expert in all things boxing.

Back to the topic:

1) Do you have a single source supporting the idea that Sarria was Ali’s head trainer (as opposed to his conditioning coach and masseuse)? So far the answer is NO.

2) Can you explain why Ali never once mentioned Sarria as his trainer in his entire life?

3) Can you explain why Sarria never claimed to be Ali’s trainer?

4) Can you explain why no one but YOU has ever made this claim?

 

I haven’t, but I knew a boxer back in the day who used to go to New Orleans to spar occasionally with Tony Licata and got to know Willie Pastrano.

Willie told a story about this fight: He said Archie was kind of following him around and talking to him throughout the early rounds: “That’s great footwork kid.” “You’re smooth kid.” “I haven’t fought anybody who could move that good.” That sort of thing, all compliments. Said he got to feeling pretty good about himself considering this was Archie Moore telling him these things.

Then Archie whacked him with a right hand out of nowhere.

Willie said Archie kept talking to him but, “After that, as far as I was concerned he was talking Chinese. I didn’t listen to another word he said.”

He also told the story of getting the title shot against Harold Johnson as a substitute for a substitute. Dundee called all excited and told him he was being offered a championship fight against Johnson and they needed to accept right away.

Willie replied, “Are you kidding? That son of a ***** can punch.”

Willie was a character.

 

This isn’t a question of opinion. It’s historic fact.

Sarria either was or was not Ali’s head trainer.

Klompton says he was and his best proof is clips saying Sarria didn’t speak English.

It’s like saying Belichick doesn’t coach the Patriots or Phil Jackson wasn’t actually the coach of the Michael Jordan Bulls, it was really the ball boy (or maybe an athletic trainer or strength coach).

This guy throws dirt every time Dundee’s name comes up. He’s had a long grudge.

He wrote a self-published book and thinks that makes him an authority and if he says something loud and long enough it will become a thing people who have no idea what they’re talking about will take as fact. It’s just trying to shade Dundee’s reputation, hoping some hapless noob will read what he says and then repeat it and it will continue to get repeated down the line.

And I’m going to call him on it every time he posts until he cites a source or some proof.

 

That's pretty much what he said in the book. He added that Archie said "stand still." And he did, then Moore hit him with a right hand. After that he said he saw 4 Archie Moores trying to kill him.

 

He provided zero. Did you look at the links? They say “Sarria doesn’t speak English.” Not “Sarria trained Ali.”

You’re still mad because you started something up with me and are butt-hurt because I kept responding to what you posted, as I have here.

In that case you asked if we’re considering Billy Conn fights at 161 or 162 pounds as middleweight fights. I said sure, there aren’t that many of them. Then you got mad because I didn’t give you a full resume of those fighters.

And I asked you where you ranked Billy at middleweight — which absolutely nobody does or did in his lifetime — and you threw a baby fit.

Go look at your own history.

 

Hear the words of the late poster on this forum, John Garfield, who trained at the famed Stillman’s Gym and at the Fifth Street Gym in Miami (at a time when @klompton2 would have us believe the man knew nothing about boxing other than how to carry a bucket).

Again, someone who witnessed and experienced life in that gym (and who doesn’t mention Sarria for some reason):

"john garfield, post: 14216070, member: 477":

“I boxed for Angie's 5th St. Amateur team in the mid '50s, 'n I'd had countless great trainers since the early '40s at Stillman's in N.Y., 'n Ang was terrific. He was terrific because he knew instinctively how to get the best from each fighter. He didn't do it by the numbers and cheer lead.

“We'da followed him barefoot over broken glass.

“We not only wanted to win but we wanted to win for him. The trips back to Miami after a team win are still euphoric memories. Our team was tight.

“Not only was he able to look after Cassius Clay, Pastrano and all the first-rate talent coming from Cuba, he was hands on with his amateur team (knew all our names) pointing out everything we needed to fix 'n how to do it.

“He was like a great jockey that knew how ta guide us down the home stretch, with just a touch on the shoulder or a look in the eye, like Whitey Bimstein or Freddie Brown.

“He didn't grandstand elaborate instructions between rounds for TV or gym rats to analyze. Sure, he exhorted a fighter, but his real instruction might have been a touch on the right shoulder, meaning it was finally time to throw the lead right to the body.

“When it worked, and the man caved, It was like hitting LOTTO.

“So for me Angie was a terrific trainer, not a cheerleader or a towel carrier left to have his between rounds advice second guessed by websters who wanna hear it communicated the way they wanna hear it.”

Link to this 2012 thread: [url]https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/did-angelo-dundee-know-how-to-box.443512/[/url]