Willie Pep deserved better...

****ing Jesus man, it's you're!!! Now that's bothering me.

P.S. - I got into The Royle Family.

P.P.S. - to others, I'm the passive one here. Talk to the other tosser :good

 

Nemesis is gonna have a damn fit!!! A thread about poor
Willie not getting respect and look at it

 

:yep

At least it's keeping the thread at the top of the page. Something Nemesis or Manassa can't be too disappointed about.

 

True that. Nothing wrong with a good old fun spat i always reckon

:yep

 

Definitely.

It's some of the more originial material we've had in here for a while too.

 

You're entitled to your own opinion. However, I disagree.
Strenuously.

 

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You forgot to mention Whitaker was also two weight divisions past his prime. I will agree that Whitaker was more effective and consistent than Chavez at welterweight, who only fought there briefly.

 

Well, Chavez was fighting at 142 pounds I believe, and was by no means the bigger man than Whitaker. So for one, he was not actually fighting much past 140(which was a very good weight for him) and two, he was fighting a guy who was no bigger than him at all, so it's not like he was facing a big WW who had an advantage over him. He was fighting a guy his own size and came it a comfortable weight for him. Whitaker also came in under the WW limit(145 pounds).

Chavez was a bit past his prime, but still the #1 P4P fighter in the world, and as Robbi said, Whitaker was not at his best weight either at WW, though being at a better stage of his career than Chavez. Either way, to completely dominate the P4P king at the time, an undefeated fighter over 88 fights, the way he did, with no real advantages, in Chavez's hometown, is remarkable.

Also, Pep lost 3 out of 4 to Saddler, the best fighter he ever faced. He was past his prime though, but what makes Saddler a better win than Chavez? The fact that Saddler beat a past his prime Pep 3 times is the primary reason he ranks so highly in the first place(though he does have some good looked over wins). I believe Chavez was a better fighter than Saddler personally. Pep's singular win over Saddler may be slightly better than Pea's win over Chavez, but then comes the fact that Pep also lost the other 3 fights to him.

 

...but then comes the fact that Pep fought 242 times. Which means that he put himself at risk 196 times more than Whitaker did.

Then comes the fact that Pep was severly outgunned by Saddler and should have been dead in that plane crash like 5 others in there with him. He broke his back. Did you know that? He was in a cast from January to June of 1947 --and by June 17 he went 10 rounds. Did you know that? And then went 10 more times before the year was out. The fact that Pep was in the ring at all should give you pause. The plain fact that he was able to beat Saddler even once after that accident should make you replace that poster you have on your ceiling for a week at least.

Then comes the fact that Whitaker had not only Pep for a precedent, he had Ali, Benitez, and Loi --and let's not forget Nicolino Locche. Have you or Robbi ever seen him? Who did Pep have as a precedent? Not many. Pep was and is far more of a phenomenon. What Whitaker did was seen before... because boxing didn't begin in 1984.

 

Just because someone is a defensive master, doesn't mean they copied their style. You can't practice having great reflexes and timing, according to you at least on the timing part. Whitaker's style was his own. Aside from being a defensive master his style was not much like Pep's.

Yes I have seen Locche. I have seen that he had nowhere near the offense of Whitaker either. I have heard a lot different of Loi as well, that he was more of a bob and weave pressure fighter in fact, so I don't see where the comparison comes in, especially being as there is little to no footage of him.

Pep's being able to compete again shows you he made a full recovery, which is a great story, but it's not like he was so much less able than he used to be. A full recovery is a full recovery, and while he may not have been fully back to his best, he was damn close from what I've seen. Great story, great recovery, good things, but it's not like he was a cripple in there. Did you know that?

 

To minimize Pep's comeback as you did only erodes your credibility. He was not "damn close" to his best and it is ridiculous to assert that in the face of his contemporaries who attested that he was less -especially after he struggled against Archie Wilmer and Biesca. The fact that he fought on for another 20 years is something that you apparently cannot appreciate without inserting Whitaker or Jones into the equation for some odd reason.

Speaking of...Whitaker's innovative moves are not unique. They have precedent. Locche fought Antonio Ortiz and made him miss 10 shots in rapid succession. He did this with his feet together, standing flush. He would also put his hands behind his back and stand directly in front of guys like Cervantes and Ismael Laguna and they would swing at ghosts look like fools. Sound familiar?

Locche's performance against Fuji was a demonstration of mastery that rivals anything that Whitaker has done.

But guess what --
it
pales
in
comparison
to
Willie Pep's
win
over
Sandy Saddler.

 

So, do you think it was one of those cases I was talking about in our last argument? A fighter showing a glimpse of his prime(or even a full performance) once last time? I don't think so, considering he was nowhere near shot by the time. What do you think it was that allowed him to beat Saddler in one of the most one-sided displays of boxing brilliance ever witnessed(according to you) in one of their fights, but get handled in their other encounters?

 

Pep didn't dominate him at all. It was a close but clear win for Pep.

About the stylistic precedence issue, I'd say that Locche, Zapata, Pep, Benitez or Canto were as about stylistically similar to Whitaker as were Young Griffo, Jim Driscoll, Benny Leonard and Tommy Loughran to Willie Pep.

But in both instances, I don't think either man (Pep or Pea) were rolling out footage from past fighters to emulate. They did what came natural for them, they weren't copy cats.

 

Pep's face was mashed after he beat Saddler.