Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by China_hand_Joe, Jul 16, 2007.


Page 12 of 25
  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,421
    26,891
    Feb 15, 2006
    I aplied your logic I would say that Hopkin's was green Toney was unmotivated and never much good anyway.

    Furthermore I would point out that Jones lost to the two best light heavies he ever faced in Tarver and Johnson.

    The excuse that he was past his prime dose not wash. He was simply stepping up in competition.
     
    janitor, Jul 17, 2007
    janitor, Jul 17, 2007
    #166
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,421
    26,891
    Feb 15, 2006
    Pep did mot build his reputation by fighting sanitation workers.
     
    janitor, Jul 17, 2007
    janitor, Jul 17, 2007
    #167
  3. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    Now you are doing the exact same things I had earlier and have taken back -fullstop- Admit you are wrong and start over -fullstop- You are trying to turn this into a personal battle, something I may have been dragged into earlier-fullstop- Lets stick to Pep vs Jones for a moment please -fullstop- Can we name two of Pep's opponents better than Hopkins -question mark- Probably not -fullstop-
     
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    #168
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,421
    26,891
    Feb 15, 2006
    I could name a dozen who were better than that Hopkins.
     
    janitor, Jul 17, 2007
    janitor, Jul 17, 2007
    #169
  5. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    My whole theory on Pep not being in the top 10 is based on great fighters like Whitaker who appear superior to Pep, but don't get placed higher than him due to historical bias -fullstop-
     
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    #170
  6. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    87
    Nov 8, 2004
    Which fights have you seen of prime Pep though?

    From what is available, the equivalent would be watching Whitaker from say 1995 onwards and deciding who was better on film.
     
    sweet_scientist, Jul 17, 2007
    sweet_scientist, Jul 17, 2007
    #171
  7. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,744
    87
    Nov 8, 2004
    It's not a historical bias that Pep beat a fighter better than anyone Whitaker ever faced, and did so PAST his prime.
     
    sweet_scientist, Jul 17, 2007
    sweet_scientist, Jul 17, 2007
    #172
  8. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    No, you seriously couldn't or you would have named two straight away -fullstop- There was little wrong with that Hopkins -although not prime he was a fine fighter with decent speed and movement back then -fullstop- He was likely better than everyone of Pep's opponents (with the possible exception of Saddler -questionmark-) -fullstop-
     
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    #173
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,538
    47,076
    Mar 21, 2007
    Do you mean look better on film?

    Which fights have you seen Pep in? Maybe you've just been unlucky.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2007
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2007
    #174
  10. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    You would expect there to be some Pep fans who do rate him highly, but not 90% of boxing fans to list Pep in their top 10 -fullstop- It just seems as though people are conforming to the popular opinion -fullstop- The staggeringly low number of people who would put legends like Jones and Whitaker (amongst a few others) above Pep seems unhealthy to me -fullstop-
     
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    #175
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,538
    47,076
    Mar 21, 2007
    Well, Jones only has two serious names on his resume and suspicion hangs over both of those wins for some reason. To me, at his best, Jones actually looks better on film than Pep. However, once it's understood that he is protecting a vulnerable chin with all that speed, it is hard, when combined with his resume problems, to place him above Pep on any list.

    But some still do.

    Whitaker also looks incredible on film and has less resume problems. He looks less complete to me. But I basically have no problems with anyone who wants to place Whitaker in Pep's neighbourhood in terms of rankings. I see Pep as superior personally.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2007
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2007
    #176
  12. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    I personally think Jones looks superior by a decent margin - he humiliated James Toney (who I consider a great fighter not an all time great) if you can point me in the direction of film of Pep actually looking that good against that calibre of opponent then there is perhaps a chance I'd change my view -fullstop- I seriously doubt that any footage exists to put him above Jones though -fullstop- I am also interested to know whether there much footage of any Pep opponents looking too impressive, it would be foolish to judge them as being as limted as they all looked up against Pep -fullstop-
     
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    #177
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,538
    47,076
    Mar 21, 2007
    I think you've kind of spun this argument on its head; you're aggressivley persuing people to prove to you what Pep is all about without having done any real research for yourself. I've asked you a few times which Pep fights you've seen and you've never answered; i'm going to guess that you've only seen clips of him and that what you're attacking here is a sacred cow which irritates you. But it is not my job to make sure you have seen sufficient footage of Pep to support your freakish argument, it's yours.

    YouTube is a fine place to start. There's plenty of him on there. What you will see is a fighter with maybe the best footwork of any, ever, who can do everything well. Honest. What I like best is how he never seems to wind up a punch.

    As to your judging Pep's opponents by just watching him v Pep; fair enough. You have three choices. Get to work, track down film of the guys he took on and run serious comparisons. If you don't want to do that you can either STFU or turn to paper.

    What you will find if you turn to paper is a trail that seems to show Pep fighting every fighter of the era in his weight class. If you want to get into running down an entire era to support your pet theory, that's where you and I have to part ways. If you accept that he fought everyone around including one p4p atg fighter, then the argument about Pep's competition is over.

    Jones looks amazing v Toney. Of course, famously, Toney is horribley weight drained and Jones later refused to reamtch him, hurting his legacy. That is neither here nor there. We agree that Jones looks great. I hope we also agree that he has a weak chin and a weak resume.
     
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2007
    McGrain, Jul 17, 2007
    #178
  14. China_hand_Joe

    China_hand_Joe Boxing Junkie Full Member

    8,217
    12
    Sep 21, 2006
    I have seen the highlights videos, a Saddler fight he lost and a Saddler fight won and one full fights a few years back against an opponents who's name I didn't care to remember -fullstop-

    No footage exists at all where a Pep opponent look particulary impressive against another competent fighter, he had hundreds of opponents yet you would not be able to find a single example of one of these fighters looking impressive -fullstop- Instead you would be left wondering what would a modern fighter like Pacman do to these people -fullstop-

    Hundreds of opponenents, no footage of those opponents looking like great fighters by modern standards -fullstop-
     
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    China_hand_Joe, Jul 17, 2007
    #179
  15. UpWithEvil

    UpWithEvil Active Member Full Member

    678
    34
    Oct 17, 2005
    And without the steroids, him and Pep would be in the same weight class, too.
     
    UpWithEvil, Jul 17, 2007
    UpWithEvil, Jul 17, 2007
    #180
Page 12 of 25