Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Well, I rate Willie Pep very highly because I believe he did beat a considerable amount of world class fighters. And his skills do look impressive on film against good fighters.

But I'm not resting much on his 229 pro career wins or his intial 62 fight winning streak, or his going 131-1-1 or whatever it was.

There's undoubtedly some padding there, the question is what's left without it (a hell of a lot, IMO) and my point about the Buck Smiths and Lamar Clarks does stand up.

I disagree with Mr Magoo's claim that 62 straight victories over his sister would be impressive.

I'd possibly rate Pep inside the top 10 pound-for-pound, and the top 3 featherweights of all-time BUT his winning streaks are not automatically impressive without any attention paid to the quality of opposition.

 

Obviously I was exagerating, but hopfully you agree that a 62-0 streak was still a rather notable feat. Especially considering that he comprised that record in just under three years or something. I will, however agree with you that the real substance to be examined here was the quality of some of the fighters he beat, which as you pointed out, were substantialy talented boxers.

 

It is questionable.
I do think Sandy was a better fighter than Chavez. He was simply that good.
Like Chavez he was a pressure-fighter type, but he had probably a little more power than Chavez did and I think he is just the better boxer as well.

To catch Willie many times in their fights, he had to be that strong.

 

Is that what passes for "lojik" these days? atsch

 

Other fighters of note who Pep beat were

Jackie Wilson
Phil Terranova (former world champ who outpointed Saddler in '49)
Jimmy McAllister
Harold Dade

... And the legend is true. He did in fact win the third round against Jackie Graves (a top ten fighter at the time and a southpaw with a record of 24-2) -without throwing a punch and on all three cards.

One of the major qualities of greatness is skill/ring generalship. Pep's level of skill was unheard of before or since. In terms of fluidity, defense, efficient mobility, angles, feinting, and keeping his man off balance, there was simply no one better. Unlike Ali or Leonard, who's defense relied on mobility outside of the perimeter, Pep would make you miss a 4 punch combination -each shot by an inch while he was directly in front of you ...and he'd be laughing the whole time.

A winning streak like Pep's cannot be discounted. Sure, Pep didn't have the most formidable resume, but it is better than most. Also, I suspect that his detractors are too young or uninformed to really recognize who Samuel Engotti was or Albert Wright, or Paddy DeMarco. Any argument that catapults a record with 40 bouts over one that has 242 fails -unless that record is Ray Leonard's.

Pep's ring artistry alone, and it was nothing short of that- demands serious consideration, which is the major reason why many have him top 3.

 

Excellent post.

I agree with it entirely. :good

 

Pep was no doubt more of a mover, but at the same time he was a better combination puncher - probably the best the sport has ever seen (I don't count Ray Leonard type flurries as combinations). Personally, I find it more impressive that Whitaker could be more stationary and make his man miss, but that doesn't mean Whitaker was more effective than Pep, or more complete.

Outside of the Chavez nuthuggers you might find the odd person who thinks Chavez was better. I think a fair majority would think Saddler was the better of the two though.

 

Saddler had more animal in him. Chavez was probably a little more accurate and fluid than Saddler, but Saddler had an almost unrivaled intensity.

 

No you havent :good

 

Do you have any proof?


This should not affect his all time status anyway, look at some of the stuff Emmanuel Augustus has pulled in the ring, it doesnt make him any better a fighter

 

I think that the anecdote is irrelevant, but fun.

I believe that it happened, but am not so sure it was against Graves. Pep claimed that it is true and that he did it with head and shoulder feints. Graves doesn't remember. Sportswriter Don Riley claims to have been there and witnessed it. An sportswriter who covered it for the St. Paul Pioneer Press talks about how the fight was a back-and-forth battle and that in the third round you couldn't count the number of punches thrown by both fighters "with a clicker." It also says that "Pep punched Graves into the ropes [in round 3] as the most even round of the evening ended."

 

The anecdote about the round won without throwing a punch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBIRabnCQw8

minute 2:06 onwards.