Canzie. Too shifty, too slick, hits harder. Ritchie had basic skills, but Tony was an innovator as far as movement went. He wouldn't just square off and engage. He would dictate the action.
Great to see Ritchie finally getting some recognition on this forum from someone other than myself! I think Ritchie's jab & punch variety could pose problems for Canzo in a similar manner as he received from Ross & Mandell. Canzo excelled as a counterpuncher, but he could be foiled by opponents that succeeded in limiting what he could counter.
I struggle to see what Canzoneri innovated compared to the great little men that came before hi, Gans and Leonard had very effective movement themselves
To quote your post: “Tony was an innovator as far as movement went. He wouldn't just square off and engage. He would dictate the action.“ What was innovative about Tony’s movement?
Watch some film. He dances in and out. Holds his hands down and dares his opponent to hit him. He takes chances by leaving openings so he can counter. He entertains the audience with these tactics. Watch him against Petrolle, McLarnin, and Ambers for starters. Leonard entertained with his sheer skill. Canzie entertained with his skill and by taking chances.
I get what you mean about Tony's peculiar stance that makes him seem open so he could counter, but wasn't that basically the same type of style that the Gibbons brothers and their protégées had before Canzoneri came onto the scene? It seems like a lot of old timers liked appearing open as a sort-of farce to open you up to counters.
First, you set up the thread to compare Ritchie with Canzoneri. When I responded to that question, you the brought up Gans and Leonard, and I let it pass mainly because they were lightweights like Ritchie. Now , you bring up the Gibbons brothers even though Mike fought as a welterweight and later as a middleweight and Tommy as light heavyweight and heavyweight. As the old Carol King song says, "I feel the earth moving under my feet ... ." But ignoring all that (but not waiving my objection to your practice of moving the goal posts), I'll assume you are acting in good faith, rather than just trolling, and address your issue. Yes, there were some similarities to their moves, but the Gibbons brothers fought out of a half crouch and used those tactics subtly by trying to make their opponent comfortable and luring them into traps. Canzoneri stood upright and employed a lot more foot movement and openly goaded his foes to try and hit him. If they took the bait he'd unload with either hand, as I recall sometimes with a jab and then a right and sometimes with just a straight right over the top. And sometimes, the tactic backfired and Tony had to pay. But he thought it was a risk worth taking and those tactics endeared him to the fans. By the way, I'm confused by your use of the word "farce." Is that the word you really meant to use?
I'm sorry I gave you the idea that I was moving goalposts, it wasn't my intention but I could see why you'd feel that why from the context of how my posts appeared. I thought you insinuated that Canzoneri's movement as being innovative with regard to boxing in any division, and not really specific to just lightweights (though again, it's obvious how 'great little men' could come off that way, in my mind Gibbons is a great little man). When I mentioned Leonard and Gans' movement also being effective, it wasn't within the context of your reply explaining what specifically made Tony's movement innovative. The style of movement Canzoneri used seemed more similar to the St. Paul style of the Gibbons brothers with it's emphasis on appearing open to counter, but Gibbons definitely seemed like less of a mover than Tony. Your first post didn't mention what made Canzoneri's movement innovative in that regard so I just thought of Gans and Leonard as examples of fighters who generally utilized movement and dictating the pace well. I'm not sure I used the word farce well in this context, I mainly used it to describe how a fighter's behaviour in using the bait and counter approach is like you're BSing your opponent. Your behavior is kind of like a sham, you're trying to fool them. Speaking of goading to hit, this kind of reminds me of how Young Griffo was described, or Corbett. I heard Griffo used to challenge people to try and hit him as if he was holding a bullcloth. Tony was definitely a once in a lifetime talent like Griffo appeared to be, but for this reason I'm unsure about how innovative he is with regard to this method of fighting. He very well may be the earliest filmed example of someone baiting and countering alongside moving excessively
