wins over the most consensus top 20 pound for pound fighters?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by goat15, Mar 17, 2011.


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  1. anarci

    anarci Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Delahoya - Chavez 2x and Whittaker.
     
    anarci, Mar 18, 2011
    anarci, Mar 18, 2011
    #31
  2. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I dont think there really is a consensus top 20, when you think of it.

    Greb, Fitzsimmons, Langford, Robinson, Charles, Armstrong and possibly Moore and Duran are nearly in all reasonable lists and must be consensus top 20s.

    AFter that, it is nearly impossible to judge. To get a consensus, you probably need to use the Official ESB list.

    Realistically, if you are limiting it to these fighters, i think you will join them with guys who are ranked the next top 2 all time (at worst in their individual weight division). this means based on the last official ESB Poll, you will probably see Ali, Louis, Monzon, Hagler, Tunney, Spinks Leonard(Ray), Napoles, Leonard (Benny), Gans, Pep, Saddler, Jofre, Olivares, Wilde, Canto. Problem is tht this gives more than a top 20 consensus so we need to start deleting fighters.

    Napoles and Spinks are both only top 4 ranked fighters, so they need to be scratched from the list, but this still leaves it at a top 22. By my count, Hagler, Gans, Saddler and Tunney are all ranked as low as 3 on the list in their individual weight division, so we need to find a consensus way to split them. I think with Tunney winning the Heavyweight title, and only not being ranked behind anyone who is not a consensus top 20 P4P fighter, he must get included. That leaves 3 fighters to split for the position. All 3 are ranked 3rd all time in their division. If you use the average points received in the ESB Poll, the spot must go to Hagler.

    So, from there the Consensus top 20 is:

    Fitzsimmons, Langford, Greb, Armstrong, Robinson, Duran, Moore, Charles, Ali, Louis, Benny Leonard, Pep, Ray Leonard, Jofre, Olivares, Hagler, Wilde, Canto, Monzon, Tunney.

    I think this is the closest we can get to an ESB top 20 consensus. So who beat the most on this list?

    I am thinking that Rocky Marciano probably has the best record against these guys with his Dominant and crushing KOs of Louis and Charles, and he isnt even in the consensus top 20 himself, even though he was outweighed by both these fighters when he beat them! Charles and Leonard are next best by my count, there records are not as impressive.
     
    Boilermaker, Mar 18, 2011
    Boilermaker, Mar 18, 2011
    #32
  3. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    You could also include Bivins in there IMO
     
    GPater11093, Mar 19, 2011
    GPater11093, Mar 19, 2011
    #33
  4. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    boiler... you make good points about how to define the consensus - a tricky thing to do indeed.

    i was just trying to recall all of the lists i'd seen, and was labelling someone 'consensus' if i'd seen good arguments made by numerous people to include someone in a top twenty. but of course using the votes would make this more scientific.

    based on your list, marciano has four wins over three fighters, and charles has four wins over two fighters. charles beat the better version of louis, and the better version of moore (x3) so i'd still give charles the nod, even if burley is excluded. bivins also loses the burley win, leaving him with two wins. johnson still has his wins over fitzsimmons and langford, but langford no longer gets credit for his walcott win, taking him down to one top twenty win.
     
    goat15, Mar 19, 2011
    goat15, Mar 19, 2011
    #34
  5. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Sugar Ray Charles Leonard has wins over-

    Benitez, Duran (2 out of 3), Hearns (and a draw), and Hagler... 5-1-1 (3) vs. these 4 great fighters.
     
    Hookie, Mar 19, 2011
    Hookie, Mar 19, 2011
    #35
  6. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Still only one Top20 fighter ...
     
    bodhi, Mar 19, 2011
    bodhi, Mar 19, 2011
    #36
  7. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Charles beat many very good to great fighters. Burley x2, Bivins 4 out of 5, Marshall 2 out of 3, Maxim x5, Moore x3, Louis, and Walcott 2 out of 4 among others.
     
    Hookie, Mar 19, 2011
    Hookie, Mar 19, 2011
    #37
  8. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    depends where you put hagler. no way top twenty for me... not sure he's consensus either.
     
    goat15, Mar 19, 2011
    goat15, Mar 19, 2011
    #38
  9. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    mclarnin has wins over benny leonard, ross and canzoneri, all of which would easily be in my top twenty, and i reckon most other people's too. he was 3-3 (1) against this trio.

    this record is comparable to charles'... leonard and louis were similarly on the downside, while charles was 3-0 against moore, mclarnin was 2-3 against ross and canzoneri. depends whether you favour dominance over one opponent or relative parity with two different ones.
     
    goat15, Mar 21, 2011
    goat15, Mar 21, 2011
    #39
  10. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    ross was 4-1 against canzoneri and mclarnin. ambers was 3-2 against canzoneri and armstrong.
     
    goat15, Mar 21, 2011
    goat15, Mar 21, 2011
    #40
  11. goat15

    goat15 Active Member Full Member

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    the following have wins over three top twenty fighters: marciano, mclarnin.

    the following have wins over two top twenty fighters: charles, bivins, greb, johnson, ross, ambers.

    langford and ray leonard have question marks over their second fighters (walcott and hagler). charles and bivins have questions marks over their third fighters (burley for both).
     
    goat15, Mar 21, 2011
    goat15, Mar 21, 2011
    #41
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