Wins that cannot be diminished?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Blofeld, Feb 3, 2023.

  1. Blofeld

    Blofeld Active Member Full Member

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    Reading through this forum it occurred to me that almost every major win can be spun in a way to take the shine off it. Wins I thought were set in stone as major achievements all seem to have some story or factor that makes it seem less impressive. For example Ali vs Frazier 1, of course Ali's long layoff and Gomez vs Zarate, with Carlos being unwell.

    Are there any victories which are pretty much accepted on here as being unimpeachably great with no excuses or ways to diminish them with hindsight?

    My suggestions are:

    Jones over Toney - seen as a pick em' fight at the time, Toney unbeaten with a good career still ahead of him.
    Sanchez vs Gomez - yes a smaller guy but an unbeaten ferocious smaller guy who won two more titles afterwards.
    Mayweather vs Alvarez - yes Canelo was green but Mayweather was getting on and Canelo of course going onto great things.
    Leonard vs Hearns - two unbeaten champs at their peak.
    Eubank vs Benn 1 - Eubank breaks down a ferocious puncher who later went onto another title and win over G-Man.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It depends upon what you mean. Some of what you write seems to directly contradict your title - Alvarez as green, Gomez as small. And both Toney and Benn had disastrous camps training for Jones and Eubank. I'd say Ketchel over Papke in three is a good example, both very focused, both had great camps.
     
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  3. Mastrangelo

    Mastrangelo Active Member Full Member

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    Jones over Toney - Toney is regarded by many to have been weight-drained at the time. Even Roy Jones kind of acknowledged it after the fight, saying He knew it will be tough for Toney cutting from 180-190.

    Mayweather over Canelo - Mayweather made Canelo cut additional 2 pounds, what may not seem as much - but with how big Canelo was at 154, it could've been significant.

    Eubank over Benn I - Benn, fighting opponent who wasn't proven at a time, didn't have a luxury of knowing about Eubank's iron chin, which We'd all learn about in that fight and later on. Because of that, Benn fought a poor fight tactically. In a rematch, He didn't try to knock Eubank out and proved He was better fighter.

    That's me playing the game by the way, I think those were great wins.
     
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  4. Blofeld

    Blofeld Active Member Full Member

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    Yes that is a good point!
     
  5. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Riddick Bowe over Evander Holyfield in their 1st fight, I don't see any excuse you can make for that fight.
     
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  6. Mastrangelo

    Mastrangelo Active Member Full Member

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    Evander was still too small, came in at 205. Only after that He built himself into real Heavyweight.
    (Sorry, again - just playing a game)

    Is there a way to depreciate Ray Robinson's title win over Kid Gavilan?
     
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  7. DirtyDan

    DirtyDan Worst Poster of 2015 Full Member

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    Gomez had been partying heavily by the time he met Sanchez and had become a literal dope fiend. He was doped on smack and didn't take the fight seriously, he thought he could blow Sanchez away. He was preparing hard for a rematch but Sanchez died in a car accident shortly after.



    By your category, a win that can't be disputed or diminished is Usyk's win over Joshua for the unified HW titles, Schmelings win over Joe Louis who was seen as unbeatable, Leonard's win over Hearns which is probably the greatest win in WW history, or Ali's win over Foreman.
     
  8. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Looking at all of Holyfields title defences, he came in the lightest vs Bowe. I think gameplan was to stick and move, which Holyfield did do successfully for a round or two. Until he got lured into a brawl, that's why even though Holyfield who fought Tyson may of been a bit past his prime. But I think he was actually a better all around fighter for his IQ.
     
  9. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joshua was ruined by Ruiz.

    Foreman was drugged and Ali had the loose ropes.

    Joe Louis was pre prime.

    Again just playing the game of course these aren't my real thoughts.
     
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  10. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    There's 3 that can't be diminished that all involved prime Ray Leonard .
    His victories over prime Benitez and Hearns (Both with championship wins
    in their past and future) And his loss to Duran in Montreal. (Duran also
    had championship performances in the past and in his future)
    Also one that get unfairly scrutinized , Pryor vs Arguello #1.
    Especially since there were two fights , and Pryor stopped
    Arguello even earlier the 2nd fight.
    So many hold on to the "magic bottle" theories without any
    real proof of any illegal substances used, or after nearly
    40 yrs with all the trainers and hanger-on's that were
    in Pryor's corner no one has come forward with anything
    to this day. They also conveniently refuse to acknowledge
    there was a 2nd fight.
     
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  11. northpaw

    northpaw Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Pac vs. Ricky Hatton can't be diminished.
    Raheem vs. Erik Morales can't be diminshed.
    Tyson vs. Spinks can't be diminshed.
    Ali vs. Foreman can't be diminshed.
    Foreman vs Lyle can't be diminshed.
     
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  12. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Can’t be certain without film.
     
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  13. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist

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    Hatton was an alcoholic who shed a bunch of weight.

    Morales was past prime and unmotivated/out of shape.

    Spinks was a light heavyweight with a knee issue.

    Foreman couldn’t tolerate high heat and humidity conditions due to his style @swagdelfadeel

    Lyle wasn’t any good anyway and almost knocked Foreman out.
     
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  14. techks

    techks ATG list Killah! Full Member

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    Hate to say this but it depends on the perspective. When u have a competition especially w famous athletes there will always b an excuse made from someone.
     
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  15. Mastrangelo

    Mastrangelo Active Member Full Member

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    I think Benitez's father and trainer was swearing that Wilfred only trained for Leonard for like a week.
    Duran only beat Leonard because Leonard wanted to prove that He can stand and fight with him. When He boxed in a rematch, Duran had no answers.
     
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