With an open mind

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Madmink, Mar 26, 2017.


  1. Madmink

    Madmink Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,620
    284
    Apr 11, 2016
    Look at pac man and srr' resume.
    Take into consideration the fighters ray fought who had been beaten by far lesser opposition and the ones that should never have been allowed,and the consecutive weight jumps and amout of hof/atg fighters pac fought,is it blasphemous to mention them in the same breath ?
     
  2. Jacques81

    Jacques81 Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,733
    4,158
    Oct 13, 2016
    Nah.
    I think Pac's win over Mayrunner cemented his P4P legacy
     
  3. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    It's not blasphemous.

    But I think SRR is more or less universally recognized as a top 3 P4P all time great, whereas Pac would probably more aptly fit between 25-100.

    :smoking:
     
  4. Madmink

    Madmink Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,620
    284
    Apr 11, 2016
    The point being that the top 10 is more or less universally recognised,but breaking it down with reasoning then pac is obviously higher than 25,also streets ahead of floyd.
    Universally jimmy wilde will be top 10-15 ??
    Joe louis will be top 15-20
    Haglers greatness wont be questioned on fighting in one division.
    Hopkins will be lauded for fighting till gone 40 beating no one of note,then beating no one of note in higher weight classes.
    General consensus is people listening to bull**** from the likes of bert sugar growing up and taking it as fact.the guy put dempsey about 7-8,why?
    Im trying to just make sense rather than argue,but people blatently ignore how limited fighters in the 'golden era' were.
    And by no means degrading srr,but line pac,floyd,tyson..any decent champ of today against fighters with losing records week after week and theyd be 200 and 0 also
     
  5. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

    35,262
    38,036
    Aug 28, 2012
    That's how I see it. Sugar Ray is top 3, or even #1 if you aren't a die hard fan of Langford or Greb's. There's so much more footage of him and Armstrong that I tend to think of them as my #1 and 2, while Langford and Greb are more like historical footnotes or mythological figures. Pacquiao should be somewhere in the 30s or low 40s in terms of all time greats. He probably could have done the kinds of things that Armstrong did, but he took his foot off the pedal around 2010. Maybe he's just been cashing in or maybe he's been doing politics ever since, but boxing has not been his primary focus in that time, not like it was from 2003-2010.
     
  6. latineg

    latineg user of dude wipes Full Member

    22,077
    16,731
    Jun 4, 2009
    No they wouldn't, not even Wilder could go 200-0 regardless to fighting less than the top guys. Those guys fought injured first of all. Big difference.
     
  7. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    Well, you're entitled to your own opinions. But based off this post, our opinions differ vastly in a great number of areas.
     
    TheyDontBoxNoMore7 likes this.
  8. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

    35,262
    38,036
    Aug 28, 2012
    They wouldn't be 200-0. They'd be 180-20 or some such. Think of the old time fighters padding their records with scrubs a bit like the elite amateurs who fight every week. Most of the time they walk right through their opponents, but occasionally they fight another elite, encounter someone who's got their number, or an awkward style, or they have an off night.

    Look at Robinson's own record. He had 200 fights but in that stretch he went 44-13-1 against other fighters listed in the top 10. Basically he had 58 title fights to go along with those other 142 journeymen. Nobody has that many title fights now. Pacquiao and Mayweather have maybe 30. The guys at the head of the line have resume accomplishments that Mayweather and Pacquiao can't begin to compete with. Archie Moore 45-16-4, Ezzard Charles 40-17-1, Henry Armstrong 33-12-2, Ali 32-5, Louis 30-3, Emile Griffith 36-17-1, Ike Williams 33-15-1. You want to bag on the old timers for fighting bums, but they also fought more elite guys than the moderns too. A lot of our elite modern fighters don't have as many fights in a career as those old timers had title fights.
     
  9. Madmink

    Madmink Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,620
    284
    Apr 11, 2016
    They definately do,but name me a man who has stepped up through as many weights as pac,not easing his way into a division but just straight in at the number 1,not to mention who they wer at the time and blazed a trail like he did.the last 7-8 years hes been fighting well above his natural weight.and still now nearing 40 i wouldnt count him out against no one in the division,couple that with his fighting style and his reliance on speed that has evidently now greatly diminished,who can compare ?
     
  10. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    How many times did he truly move up to go after the #1? MAB at 126? He moved back down when he faced Hatton at 140. Margarito had done nothing at note at 154. DLH was not a welterweight when Pac faced him. Diaz was not the best at 135. Morales was coming off a loss at 130?

    And the 8 weight classes is kind of a sham, because no reasonable observer can make the case that a vacant 154 strap should have ever been on the line between 2 welterweights.

    Don't get me wrong. Pac was phenomenal at one time, and what he did in 2008-2009 was nothing short of sensational.

    But I think you're overrating Pac, and I believe you're definitely selling Hopkins short.

    At the end of the day, I'm hard pressed to see how anyone could make a convincing case that Pac should be ranked any where near SRR - but like I said, everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

    :smoking:
     
    TheyDontBoxNoMore7 likes this.
  11. SnatchBox

    SnatchBox Boxing Full Member

    5,426
    4,686
    Nov 26, 2016
    All I know is Ray beats the brakes off poochouch
     
  12. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

    35,262
    38,036
    Aug 28, 2012
    Weight climbers like Duran, Walker, Armstrong, Hearns, Leonard, Toney. As for the man himself, Robinson started at welter and nearly captured a title at light heavy.
     
    joe brown and Ant Sutton like this.
  13. Madmink

    Madmink Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,620
    284
    Apr 11, 2016
    Well that would be completely ignoring anything he did before barerra.
    Then only beating barerra stepping up,who at the time was an absolute monster and a cast iron atg.
    Diaz maybe wasnt the best but agreeing to fight dlh,as shot to **** as he might have been,i called dlh for being a bully more or less and im pretty sure you would have to.coupled with the fact hes still not a natural ww now and could boil down to lw pretty easilly yet he stepped down to fight hatton,for one the manner of victory was flat out astonishing over someone as strong at 140 as hatton,and the fact the only other fighter to ever do it took him up to 147 and never come near to making as light work as pac did.
    Then theres cotto,who floyd never went near,clearly the bigger man and clearly elite,absolutely destroyed him.
    Then theres margarito who was what ? Say 5-6 inch taller prob a stone heavier on fight night,then add the fact hes not even a welterweight yet hes fought there for so long and still is.
    Im not phillipino,nor a hater of robinson or any fighter to be fair,justcall the facts and see past the rose tinted specs of the old time clap trap
     
  14. Madmink

    Madmink Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,620
    284
    Apr 11, 2016
    That being said ray was a ww to start out going up as far as lhw.so on that note i'll go out on my shield and say nigel benn ko's arguello hence must be greater
     
    lepinthehood and SnatchBox like this.
  15. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

    49,541
    16,031
    Jul 19, 2004
    I've already stated my belief that what Pac did, especially in 2008-2009, was sensational.

    And before we get to rose tinted glasses, you said, "....but name me a man who has stepped up through as many weights as pac,not easing his way into a division but just straight in at the number 1"

    I'm curious, how many times did he jump up to a new class right for the consensus #1? I don't the answer, so that's why I'm asking.

    The one instance I can think of where that may have been the case was Barrera. But I'm not even 100% sure if that was Pac's first fight at 126.

    So how many times was it?