With No Color Line, Who Would Have Actually Been Lineal HW Champs?

I have pondered this question quite a lot over the years.

I don't think that old George Godfrey would have been champion in this alternate universe, because he was nearer the level of Sullivan's challengers, than he was to Sullivan's level.

Of all the men that you listed, Peter Jackson is the most likely to have become champion.

I would install him as a clear favorite, over the version of John L Sullivan that was champion during his prime years.

For the others it would depend upon a few variables.

Langford, McVea and Jeanette all had the talent to be a champion, but they would have got their chance against a strong champion, in the form of Jack Johnson.

You might reasonably make Johnson favorite over all of them, though they might have been able to pick him off later in his title reign, and if he had fought all three the chances of one bating him would be significant.

Harry Wills poses a similar problem.

He is certainly good enough to be a champion, but he is getting his chance against Jack Dempsey, so you might want to make him the underdog in that.

It is however possible that he might have got to Willard before Dempsey did, had he been given equal opportunities.

Our second George Godfrey looks like a man who would have fallen short on paper, but there is anecdotal evidence that he was better than his record suggests.

He peaked around the time that Gene Tunney retired, so he might just have been able to exploit the aftermath of that.

I will close with the observation that upsets happen.

Just because some of these fighters would have been the underdog in their championship fight, it doesn't mean that they couldn't have pulled something out of the hat.

 

Another question that we might ask, is which white champions might have owed their status to the color line?

Now John L Sullivan would almost certainly have seen off any potential black challenger, until Peter Jackson came along.

However if Peter Jackson gets to Sullivan before Jim Corbett, then Corbett has to come to Jackson cap in hand, and request a shot at the title.

That opens up the possibility of timelines without Corbett or Fitzsimmons, and perhaps timelines with Maher and others.

Whatever the timeline, it is on a collision course with a juggernaut named James J Jeffries.

However Jeffries wins the title, none of the potential black challengers are going to be able to hold a candle to him, early in his title reign.

Things get interesting when Jack Johnson comes along, and that gives us three plausible scenarios.

A. Jeffries sees off Johnson, and Johnson tries to grab the title after Jeffries retires.
B. Johnson lifts the title from Jeffries, and we are not talking about Hart or Burns today.
C. Hart still derails Johnson, and the timeline plays out more or less as it did.

All of these scenarios probably end with Johnson as champion at some point.

If one of the top black contenders had got to Johnson before Willard did, then it is by no means certain, that Willard would ever have held the title.

Dempsey almost certainly wins the tile at some point, and frankly I think that Tunney almost certainly does.

I don't think that any of the champions of the mid 30s is guaranteed the title, in an alternative timeline

Therefore throwing Godfrey and Gains into the mix, might complicate things, if only based on who they might beat in eliminators.

 

My two cents worth:

Janitor has more or less covered the field.

My observation is the only one of the white champions between Sullivan and Dempsey I think the probable champion without the color line (and attendant scoring bias) would be Jeffries. Fitz and Burns would have been champions in lighter weights, I think, but possibly never heavyweight champions.

Dempsey might have been champion, but I don't think it a certain thing. Wills would have gotten there first and a young Wills might well have been able to handle Dempsey. For all the Dempsey myth, Dempsey's list of victims--small guys like Carpentier, Gibbons, Levinsky--ordinary guys like Brennan--men who failed miserably against an aging Wills, Fulton and Firpo--plus an old and out of shape Willard--hardly make a convincing case for his necessarily handling Wills.

Tunney? He did not beat anyone who was both 6' tall and 195 lbs. And few punchers other than Dempsey, plus he was gifted with a long count in the second Dempsey fight. So I don't buy the 6' 3" and over 220 lbs. and big punching Godfrey as being an automatic loser.

The impact of the color line in discouraging potential black fighters from even trying, or the few who tried getting top training, probably meant that the white fighters of the early thirties, Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, and even Carnera, were the best out there, but had there been no color line, as there wasn't after 1937, I think the influx of black talent would have made that mediocre era in heavyweight boxing look quite different.

 

Excellent.

 

Oh yeah, Dempsey fought only beat small guys like Fulton, Morris, Gunboat Smith, Firpo, Flynn, Miller, Christian, Devere etc. Willard was aging, of course, he was aging when he beat Johnson too, but you say that as if you think the Willard of the Johnson fight beats Dempsey, the same Willard who lost to the same Gunboat Smith who Dempsey soundly beat. Slow plodding Wills, would have ended up like the other big strong giants Dempsey fought. Other than that, most of what you said makes sense, though I think Fitz had enough athletic talent to where he still gets the title at some point. Very true, the thirties would have not been so boring, and you never know if Joe Louis would have been less of a standout with many other black opponents in the game.

 

Honestly, this is a cop out answer now, but none of them.

I don't think Jackson ever beats Corbett. I don't think Wills ever beats Dempsey. I don't think Langford ever beats Johnson. And I don't think Ray ever beats Louis.

Like some have posed, had coloured fighters been given a realistic chance at a title shot, the whole landscape itself might be different. Not having to fight with handcuffs, not having to dive or face each other relentlessly to feed their families. Not having to settle for low splits every fight.

So on the surface, the standout coloured champions weren't better than their white counterparts, but on a deeper level, the landscape might be entirely different to the point we don't actually have a valid comparison point.

 

@janitor says it all and cleans up. On you boss!

 

I don't think this critique actually rebutted "I don't think it a certain thing" and making "a convincing case for his necessarily handling Wills."

Willard--I said he was old and out of shape when he fought Dempsey. He was 37, had not fought in 3 years, and was visibly soft around the middle on film. I didn't bring up any issue concerning the 1915 Willard.

"the same Willard who lost to the same Gunboat Smith who Dempsey soundly beat"

And the point? Gunboat Smith in 1913 was a hot and winning fighter when he beat Willard. He was clearly slipping by the time Dempsey got him. He had lost to Norfolk, among several others, and Norfolk would be KO'd by Wills.

"Dempsey only beat small guys"

I didn't say that. What I implied was that among his most important wins, three of the most salient were Carpentier, Gibbons, and Levinsky, who were small--light-heavyweights.

"Flynn"

Dempsey splitting one-round KO's to a far past it Flynn proves what concerning Wills?

"Slow, plodding Wills, would have ended up like the other big strong giants Dempsey fought."

The "slow plodding Wills" was nicknamed in his youth "The Black Panther." I might at least question if a man compared to a panther was considered plodding. The only films I have seen of Wills were when he was 35 or older. What he was like in his 20's is guesswork. As for the Dempsey beat several big guys and so he would have also beaten Wills argument--Archie Moore beat Valdes and Baker, so it follows he would have beaten Liston or Foreman? I judge Wills better than the big men Dempsey beat, so they can at most be used as evidence, not proof.

My bottom line and I stick with it is that I don't think it certain Dempsey would have beaten Wills. The color line made this a question for which there is no definitive historical answer.

 

"What I implied was that among his most important wins, three of the most salient were Carpentier, Gibbons, and Levinsky, who were small--light-heavyweights."

Carpentier is only considered an important win due to being the first million dollar gate, NOT because it was a tough fight or a great show of Jacks skill (Its often believed among boxing historians Dempsey carried the fight to some degree)

Gibbons weighed only about ten pounds less than Dempsey for their bout, we can find a large number of opponents with greater size disparity that Wills fought, including some he lost to.

No mentions of Fulton or Morris who were much larger highly ranked opponents who Jack took out as easy as anyone he ever fought.

If Flynn beats a green Dempsey in 1 (possibly thrown) and a year later is beaten in the same fashion, which version of Dempsey should be considered prime and compared to a prime Wills? Think!!

For common opponents, Dempsey KO'd Firpo in 2, Wills couldn't at all. Dempsey broke down and KO'd the same Sharkey who beat Wills. Both have early KO wins over a couple of others.

As for "Panther" Johnson was considered fast on his feet too.... Wasn't flatfooted Max Baer often called a "Tiger"? Nicknames don't mean much here, It is true more footage would be helpful here, but an aging inactive Dempsey in the Tunney fights looked considerably quicker than any footage of Wills.

Comparing Dempsey to Moore and Wills to Liston and Foreman is laughable at best, and makes it very hard to take you seriously,

On another note, the color line wasn't the only reason why Dempsey never fought Wills, even after the first debacle with Rickard, they signed and almost fought in 25, but Wills manager negated to pay Dempsey the agreed prefight percentage voiding the contract. One can wonder if this fight would have happened even with no color line.... More likely but not guaranteed, and thus should be considered for this thread

 

Possible, but at best that assumes no upsets.

A more likely scenario is Corbett challenging Jackson for the title.

I favor Dempsey for sure, but Wills would certainly be his toughest challenge.

It is also just possible, that Wills grabs the title before Dempsey.

Perhaps a more interesting question, is what if Ray had got the kind of support that was available to the white contenders born at the same time?

Like Walcott, he got his opportunity late in life, due to the war.

Unlike Walcott he didn't have a style suited to longevity.

Were there other fighters like Ray out there, who simply slipped below the radar?

 

It's by far the more interesting question.

I mean sure they could be upsets, but individually the fights favour the champions.

The deeper picture is how different the landscape would be.

 

Tiger Flowers might be a salutary warning.

If Harry Greb had drawn the color line against him, then we would still see him as a damn fine fighter, but not in Greb's class.

He wasn't in historical terms.

It is easy to imagine people saying, that he was a very good fighter, but that he would only have got a pay day against Greb.

Just remember that the underdog always gets a vote in a fight!

 

Of course upsets can happen. You could also make an argument that not only did Flowers upset Greb, he took an undeserving victory.

 

From what I can gather, it was a bit of a Holmes Spinks situation.