with pac floyd not being made has ufc taken over boxing ?

Explains why they were desperate to put the belt back on Arlovski then Randy, as Tim Sylvia is a sack of **** and an exception to the rule to draw the casual fans in. Look at the heavy push Brock, Cain, Carwin and to a lesser extent Mir got compared to the slow and steady build of JDS who had to beat arguably as many top 10/15 guys on his own than all 3 of them put together before he got his shot

 

Given that as you say the non-American Arlovski was preferred to Sylvia and both (and arguably Randy too) were offered nothing comparable to the deals they tried to get Fedor to sign maybe the key is having a marketable heavyweight champion rather than an American one?

I mean does dispute that even today Fedor would draw at least double the audience that bona fide Americans Josh Barnett and Daniel Cormier will muster on Saturday? Likewise Larry Holmes was American but that didn't stop the eighties being a very weak era for heavyweights with boxing's focus elsewhere until Tyson came along.

 

Fedor built his legacy outside the UFC and already had a huge fan base and using him as an example is a misnomer as he didnt even sign on the dotted line. Dana spent years dismissing him until the demand for a mega fight with Brock was on the horizon. Which nationality is Lesnar again? Considering White's comments before and since that attempt it's pretty clear which horse Dana was backing. He did the same with Overeem aswell

Now I'll say again, maybe a rubber match with Andre & Tim was warranted as the 1st two fights were relatively exciting. I know the division was thin at the time, but granting an immediate shot to a guy who'd been on the bench for a year and was knocked into retirement by a LHW gives you some indication of the confidence had in Sylvia's drawing power. Which is zero...

Now back to why JDS had to win 8 straight to get a shot and was still passed over by Cain, Mir and Carwin despite beating better opposition...

 

I don't need to justify UFC's policies I was responding to your comment that unless boxing and ufc have an American heavyweight champion then business is down. That is far too simplistic - what's important is having a heavyweight that draws, not one that is American. Regardless of how it happened, Fedor would have been a bigger draw in the UFC than any heavyweight other than Lesnar despite much of the heavyweight roster being American. And both boxing and UFC's business skyrocked in the mid-noughties despite neither having an American heavyweight on top due to Oscar De La Hoya's popularity and the post-TUF boom. That's the great thing with multiple weight classes - if the heavyweight champion isn't clicking with people there's X other champions to promote.

Of the three you cited - Mir was pushed ahead of JDS because he was by the far the best known and had the feud with Lesnar, Cain was pushed because they hoped to appeal to hispanics and Carwin was pushed because they thought he was the next Tyson due to all the fast knockouts. Likewise Overeem was welcomed into the UFC with a match against Lesnar and then an immediate title shot because they thought with his verbal skills and look he'd be marketable. In contrast JDS is a nice, bland guy who they didn't have a ready hook for.

 

you are arguing in circles. DLH's buzz was from hardcore Hispanic fans and women. Kinda similar to the Canadian effect with GSP No denying Oscars impact, but as I stated the casual interest in the States is peaked when there is an American HW Champ. That's why there was only really buzz about Lennox when he fought Holyfield and Mike.

Im not saying lower weights dont draw, or that all American HW's do, but when you hit the jackpot with a Tyson or Lesnar, then casual interest is peak in the sport as a whole in the States.

And I dont think you can argue that Cain and Shane arent bland really, have you listened to them in interviews. Point still stands, they were given a push before JDS and their nationalities certainly didnt do no harm

 

No Stoo you are arguing in circles.

You said "When both sports have a Heavyweight American Champion, business is up across the board. No mystery about it really"

I said what was important is having a marketable heavyweight and that many American heavyweights have not drawn AND many promotions without marketable heavyweights have done well business wise by focusing on lower weights.

You then cite as an example Tyson and Lesnar. But neither replaced a non-American as heavyweight champion - the champs they beat (with one exception for Tyson) were Americans. The difference wasn't a change in nationality but a change from one american-born champion to one with a more marketable personality.

You then say you don' t deny that the lighter weights can draw - but that's exactly what your previous statement did. Business can go up across the board with or without an American heavyweight champion.

And again why do I have to justify how the UFC's behaves? The point I was disputing was not that the UFC favours American fighters but that American heavyweights are the be all and end all of ensuring business goes up.

And I notice you're still ignoring that the UFC was happy to rapidly push both Alistair Overeem and Fedor to the top because they saw them as more marketable than the likes of Mir or Carwin. While Velasquez's nationality did help, he was hardly pushed an American. Indeed if you believed the UFC you'd have thought he was brought up in Mexico City.

 

No, Both sports are great, Boxing is more popular worldwide then MMA, But MMA is growing, Bottom line is both have some damn good fights and millions of fans and are here to stay!

 

Sigh...you been taking reading lessons from Haggis? Go re-read my posts fella :conf

 

Please tell me how I have misunderstood what you meant by writing this in a thread about whether boxing's business is down

Because to me it seems to be saying that the be all and end all to improving business is getting an American heavyweight champion. Which as I have shown is simply not true.

 

Ive said interest in MMA/Boxing PEAKS casual interest when there is an American Champ. Please quote me directly where Ive said it's the be all and end all Will...because those are pretty strong terms you are attributing to me

 

I'm sorry Stoo but that's simply not what you said - you very clearly say that when either sport has an American Heavyweight Champion business is up across the board. And I'd say 'its simple'...and 'there's no mystery' imply you think increasing business/interest is as simple as just getting an American holding the world title.

And considering that the records for the two most important business metrics - gates and pay per views - were set by Oscar De La Hoya and Floyd Mayweather in 2007 that would suggest business can peak without an American holding the heavyweight title.

 

And to get to my original counter point - I again don't think they key thing is nationality but marketability. Some fighters have a connection with the public and some don't. Obviously nationality can play a part in that - particularly in less developed markets for either sport - but primarily its things like fighting style, personality, charisma, record, etc that determine whether somebody becomes a big star. And its a very unpredictable and inexact process which actually does have a lot of mystery behind it. Again Fedor shouldn't be a draw in America but his record and mystique made him someone who was an excellent television draw and could have been huge in the UFC.

 

As I said, quote me DIRECTLY...

Where did I say non-Americans CANT sell, when I acknowledged the drawing power of both GSP and Oscar myself...because that's not the point I was making

Anyway lets look at the numbers shall we

Out of all the weight classes available in boxing and MMA, half the biggest draws have been heavyweight fights...and ive already acknowledged the crossover appeal of DLH and GSP...

I have no idea why you are making a big deal out of this, big American men sell PPV's to Americans...it's no mystery

 

And again I did quote you directly.

You said "It's pretty simple to understand. When both sports have a Heavyweight American Champion, business is up across the board. No mystery about it really".

There are no caveats in that statement. There is no allowance made for the fact that not all American heavyweights will draw as champion. Its just a simple statement that the simple truth to get business to increase across the board is to get an American as champion. The logic of that statement is indeed that the UFC would do better business with Tim Sylvia as champion than Fedor in 2007 or that John Ruiz would do better viewing figures on HBO than the Klitschko brothers in the mid-nineties.

Given the fact that rather than showing a range of American heavyweights drawing as champion your sample shows that there's been only top ten pay per view headline by a heavyweight fight not featuring Lesnar or Tyson it would seem I would be correct to focus on the marketability of individual fighters rather than their nationality. The key is not having an American heavyweight champion but having huge crossover stars being pushed in prominent positions within the sport.

 

I said EXACTLY the same thing about Fedor myself didnt I...and you said I ignored your point about the Fedor push...