Witherspoon of the Holmes fight VS the following

Witherspoon on his best day KO's Lewis from McCall and Rahman fights, beats Holy from Moorer fight and probably beats Tyson from Douglas fight.

But against the best versions of these HWs he probably loses in competitive fights.

 

On their best night, all three beat him in competitive fights, though the Spoon has a punchers chance against Lewis.

However, on their off nights, like Lewis against Rahman/Mavrovic, or Holyfield against Moorer/Bowe 3, or any post-prison version of Tyson, Spoon would be at least 50-50 if not a favourite.

Timmy was just a step below the greats on his best night, but his poor habits out of the ring did him in.

 

You're right but he was a terrible under achiever .. he fought often out of shape, over weight, under motivated .. he was without question a victim of the worst of the Don King era but also lacked strength of character and will .. Larry Holmes fought through the same and was champion of the world for eight years .. from a physical gift standpoint Witherspoon had a lot .. good size at 6' 3" / 78" reach .. excellent chin, strong defense, excellent power, good speed .. the man was kind of a large natural heavyweight James Toney type .. if only he trained with a consistent intensity which eh did not do .. in my opinion he was the most gifted of that entire era of lost heavyweights ..

 

Interesting comparison to Toney one I've never thought of but it fits. He wasn't quite the defensive master Toney was when he was on, Toney could use that shoulder and move that head like a master and kill you with counters. But Tim was a strong defender as well. Also both were underachievers and lazy from time to time. I grew up watching both and was a huge fan of both fighters.


As far as the question he's not beating any of the 3 at their best although I'd give him the best shot of cracking Lewis since Lennox could be vulnerable if you got him just right which Tim possibly could.

But more often then not I'll take

Lewis W12 Spoon
Holyfield W12 Spoon
80's Tyson tko 8 Spoon

 

I agree with this to a large extent.

I think the "lost heavyweights" thing is over-stated though, generally.
Truth is, (due to King's monopoly) most of those guys were matched in a series of tough fights without much respite once they hit the 'big-time'. Larry Holmes seemed to get a lot of "filler" defenses, from the very beginning of his reign and throughout it, and managed to get many of the better challengers when they were still too green.

No one in the WBA line had the benefit of taking on the Evangelistas, Ocasios, Zanons, LeDouxs etc.
Between 1979 and 1986 the weakest challenger to the title was probably James Tillis, the undefeated 24-year-old version.
And when the WBC stripped Holmes the fights were Page-Witherspoon-Thomas-Weaver-Berbick-Tyson over the next 3 years.

Holmes was getting a relatively easy ride for much of his reign.

 

He didn't need to duck anyone but he was given a lot of "easy" defences, while the alternative championship lines syphoned off several of the better contenders.

 

He did this once. Unforgiven is correct.

 

Larry Holmes, at the time, in the second half of his reign, was actually quite open about not wanting to face the better challengers. He felt he'd paid his dues.
Around 1984 he was saying he didn't want to fight any more Weavers or Witherspoons. He ducked Greg Page because he had easier fights lined up.
Perhaps Holmes was just playing up to his character. Take it with a pinch of salt.
Nowadays he'll say he ducked no one. Take that with a pinch of salt too.

 

I think he lacked a little heart and fire tbh, give him the heart and determination of a Holyfield or a Holmes and he could have been great.

 

Fair call. Dokes, Page and Witherspoon were all extremely talented but none had the self disipline and fire. Certainly not consistently. This is where Holmes set himself apart in the era. He was as determined as they come.

 

Yep in their fight Holmes wanted it more to me even though Witherspoon had the ability to beat him on that night.

 

I agree.
I can't see Page, Tubbs, Thomas, Dokes or Coetzee beating him in his prime. Maybe late in his reign they might.

& He has wins over the fighters they lost their titles to.

 

My point is that up until 1984, six years into his reign and not till he was in his mid thirties did Holmes enter the ring in less than top shape .. he was focused and driven. He always showed tremendous heart .. Page had soft touches, Witherspoon had soft touches, Dokes had light touches .. Holmes also beat men who beat those men .. Berbick and Bey beat Page, Holmes edged Witherspoon and beat Bonecrusher who did and so on .. the men King manipulated lost heart because they were robbed blind of their purses and were often fighting for nothing .. they all developed a fu-k it type of attitude .. careers were wasted. No pun.