Witters level of competition

Thanks Gazoc. I feel eminently qualified as I saw all these fights and being a historian of the Welterweight division one of my most favorite divisions in boxing.

I am not saying Gilpin was the best in the world but he was a real tough nut domestically that Honeyghan had to navigate earlier on in his career that gave him true hell. This was very much a grounding in Honeyghan fight education something the likes of lets say Audley Harrisson and Amir Khan and lots of domestic fighters are lacking hence the reference to the great Mickey Duff as a developer of talent.

Sylvester Mittee was in the world rankings when Lloyd took him out. Mittee might have been even more successful had he not run into Lloyd and subsequently Kirkland Laing.

It is a bit rich to call Shufford a joke if I am correct he had aonly lost 1 bout at most prior to meeting the Raggamuffin man. Rosi was no joke as proven by his performances post Lloyd.

Also there were serious contenders behind Lloyd when he fought Curry such as Simon Brown, Blocker, Starling, Bobby Joe Young, Tyrone Trice etc Nino La Rocca was still around so I don't agree that Shufford was a soft touch. Basically Lloyd had developed to a level that Mickey Duff had no hesitation put him in with any Welterweight period.

I studied Curry assidously. I loved him as a fighter, he was my favorite fighter alongside Azumah Nelson and Honeyghan beat him in style anybody else would have been stopped by Don Curry that night. He hit Lloyd with a great shot that hurt Lloyd who was in the condition to take it roar back. Don Curry was an great Welterweight champion in pursuit of all time greatness until Lloyd and that great fighter Mike McCallum did a job on him.

Blocker we are agreed on. Bumphus and Hatcher were no dummies that is for sure genuine world champions. Bumphus took a decisio over Starling controversial or not.

Marlon Starling was another excellent fighter for me the best defensive fighter of that era. Lloyd fought the wrong because he allowed Starling to rile him but credit goes to Starling and Eddie Futch for perfect tactics.

For comparison I will never denigrate the great Kostya Tyzu as I would never denigrate the great Don Curry but Curry was better and for a period of time pre-honeyghan he was an unbeatable fighter. Vaca was better than Maussa for sure. Vaca had not be stopped or bludgeon like Cotto had done to him pre Hatton. Bumphus was definitely better than Collazo and while Hatcher at his best is not better Jose Luis Castillo at his best the version Lloyd beat was better than the version Hatton beat. Blocker was definitely much better than Paulie Malignaggi and how can you even compare them and Yung Kil Chung was better than Urango who had the ability to make Hatton look like Willie Pep.

Lloyd will not win a popularity contest with Hatton. Popularity means nothing to me it is deeds in the ring that matter period.

 

who is witters fight on saturday against?

 

Well, Mittee MIGHT have been more successfull but the bottom line is he didn't get much beyond British level when tested.

Rosi did turn out to be a very good win, credit there to Lloyd.

Shufford lost 2 prior to the Honeyghan fight and would only win 1 more after it, if you cross reference his record with Currys and McCrorys you can see how he got his ranking. He'd fought no one of much consequence and got his ranking on the back of his run of wins against average fighters and because he was one of the few fighters that Curry and/or McCrory hadn't already beaten. Duff knew he was a soft touch and paid him a lot of money to come over so Honey could get the number 1 ranking. Of the contenders you mention around that time LaRocca had been beaten easily by Curry, niether Trice or Brown were serious contenders at that point, Trice hadn't "made it yet" and Brown had been beaten by Starling who, in turn had been beaten by Curry. Bobby Joe Young was nowhere near contention at that point and would never be anything more than a fringe top20 contender (I'm not sure where you got that name?). Blocker was a good fighter and ended up as Honeys mandatory after he beat Curry but the divsion really had been cleaned out by that point and Shufford was "last man standing" mainly because he didn't get seriously involved!!!

On the oppostion we'll have to disagree, I'd maybe give you Vaca-Maussa but if you look what Bumphus and Hatcher went on to achieve at 147 it tells you they were on their last legs when they fough Honeyghan (Bumphus never fought again and Hatcher got flattened by Aaron Davis and retired) so I'd say the Bumphus that Honey fouggt is no way comparable to the Collazo that Hatton fought. I'll be honest, I don't remember much about Chung but a look at his record suggests its not too big a stretch to compare him with Urango? He had 2 big fights outside the Orient and lost them both, theres not really much on his record to suggest he was THAT good a fighter at world level.

I was a big Honeyghan fan and I'm this isn't a popularity contest, I just find it really strange you can't see the obvious parallels in their careers.

 

Let's go back to the subject at hand for a moment, Witter's level of competition is okay for a world class fighter, he's beaten a better level than many. Ndou was a decent gatekeeper, Kotelnik (controversial though it was) a future champ, Corley (well maybe I should exclude him as he was completely shot) and Harris former champs. Not too bad. But could have been so much better. He basically wasted many of his prime years between fighting Judah in 2000 and Ndou in 2005 facing absolutely terrible opposition.

I mean David Kirk (9-29-2), Alan Temple (12-13-0), Alan Bosworth (15-10-2), Lucky Sambo, laatekwei Hammond, Fred Kinuthia, Oscar Hall. None of these guys were in the world top 50! Of course you got a few of his nuthuggers banging on about the 14 fight KO streak, but the opposition, to put it frankly, was dreadful. He also passed on a WBO title shot at a prime Corley which would have been a winnable fight and made no effort to step it up to face even moderate opposition. As a result of this wasting of his prime years, he'll be forgotten in a few years and it's a shame as he could have done a lot more with his talent.

 

I think a prime Witter would beat a prime Corley.

Beating up the Alan Bosworth's of this world was stupid. I remember after taking five rounds to KO Alan Temple he called out Hatton to his face and claimed to Adam Smith that he was the best 140lb'er in the world!

Hatton owned him then IMO, despite what others say.

''How do you come to the conclusion that you are gonna destroy me; certainly not on that tonight mate!''

 

Gazoc mate I think we have to agree to disagree. I think 1 guy was protected the other was really let off the leash.

 

For a man who only contenders would fight, his competition was good. He wanted big fights but there was no reason for any big fighter to fight him...

...except Hatton!!!

 

Too many excuses being made for him. He was happy going out there and fighting the Kinuthias and Sambos of this world. It was up to him to go out there, make the offers and try to negotiate the fights. Instead, it was all bleating in the papers about how everyone was ducking him! Before you can accuse people of ducking, you have to actually try and make the fights. Junior never did!

 

Says who? You don't know what phone calls were made or what letters were sent.

 

Hmmm... well i don't recall any top ten fighters making mention of , or discussing, any serious offer being made to them by Witter. I don't know whether you think he made offers to the whole top ten and it's just by a conspiracy of silence that nobody mentioned it. I rather doubt it myself. When he finally started setting his sights on decent fighters, he got them (Ndou, Kotelnik) it was just 3-4 years too late. If his conduct during the whole Hatton fiasco is anything to go by (talk a lot in the papers but never come up with anything serious) his attitude during this period was all mouth and no trousers.

 

He couldn't do any more to make a fight with the best 140 pounder. Everyone else was quite irrelevent but he did say he wanted to fight Judah, Witter etc They all said they don't know him or need him.

Witter was making moves. While he couldn't make big fights he was fighting eliminators, fighting for title, making good defences etc Then when he became a legit champ, people like Hatton wouldn't negotiate. He ****ed up by losing to BRadly cos it looked like a Malignaggi bout was lined up.

 

You must be talking about a different period. I'm talking about the 2000-2005 period between Witter and Ndou when he did not meet a fighter in the world top 50. I notice the number of references to Hatton in the above post and okay his lottery numbers didn't come in but there are other fighters out there he could made offers to. Instead, he based his whole career around hoping to get the lottery win against Hatton. I doubt very much a Malignaggi bout would ever have come off, seems to be the story of Witter's career, it looks like such a bout is happening, it never does.

I'm trying to ensure consistency of judgement on issue such as this and bearing in mind that Hatton's career is slated between winning the WBU (when he was in effect little more than a British title fighter) and beating Tszyu, despite the wins over respectable top 10-20 types such as Tackie, Magee, Oliveira and Phillips, surely Witter must be judged by the same standards and be double slated for wasting five years fighting nobody in the top 50.

 

Victor Hugo Castro up next.

 

You are talking about a period when Witter couldn't draw flys to ****. He had the odd good fight but nothing came together.

I do not judge Witter on Hattons level. Hatton fought and beat much better comp.

I think its a case of being able to make fights happen and that rests with the promoter.

 

I think both Warren and Hennessy are partly to blame for Witter being unable to get a big fight.

Though - it must be said that Witter doesn't help himself much with his attitude and demeanour, as well as his boring style.