Wlad Klit (?sp:)) vs Holmes

You may be right, but that was a rather long list of aging opponents that Mr. Magoo mentioned. I never realized that most of his recent fighers were that old. At first, I wasn't sure, but I visited boxrec, and the list is confirmed, although Magoo had Botha at 34, when he was actually 33, and Mcline was maybe a year younger as well. It was still close though. He was also defeated more than convincingly by Sanders, Purity and Brewster. Byrd was up there in age, and was dwarfed by wlad, as well possesing little power. I never thought much of Mccline, Botha, Peter or Byrd. I have to agree that even though Wlad is a good fighter with some decent wins, his overall list is very weak. I don't think he's ready to be compared to Larry Holmes.

Just my opinion.

 

Vlad does not have the overall credentials to be listed as an ATG, yet but he is still young, Heavyweights and age can be a hard thing to figure out, because a lot of heavyweights are late bloomers or late starters, I see a level of improvement with the older or more experienced fighters and even Holyfield,McCline and McCall or still decent gatekeepers to an extent. Still if you search Holmes record and see who he beat convincingly and who he struggled with, who he rematched that he struggled with (NOT Norton,Weaver,Witherspoon,Williams) and who were top contenders or fellow champs that he avoided...Vlads stock goes up...I see Vlad as a problem for him style wise and offensively, who of Holmes opponents compare, Bonecrusher,Cooney,Weaver,Witherspoon,Norton, no, None...I see Vlad as on the rise and if he wants to be an ATG, he must fight the other Champs and the best and survive, Holmes did not do that.

 

:good

It is true that Wlad has some ugly losses, but has improved a lot and came back stronger.

With Wlad's wins it is more about how dominant most of them are than the wins themselfes. McCline was at his peak and lost every round and was never stopped or even dropped before or after that (not counting the knee-injury against Valuev), that should tell you something about Wlad's power. Byrd was only once knocked out but even against Ibeabuchi he was even on the cards, he couldn't win a single round against Wlad.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the Byrd wins as "he was too small anyway". He is 6'0 213lbs, what is Liston? 6'0 1/2 212lbs. It is true that Byrd added some bulk, but he still left his training camp at 203lbs. If you want to dismiss this win for Wlad then fine, but you're looking at a very long list of dismissed wins if you want to dismiss every win over 6'0" 213lbs fighters by a random fighter, in fact i think Johnson's record then would read 1-0 (1). On top of that, Byrd only lost to outstanding fighters (Klitschko & Ibeabuchi) so he established himself as one of the best contenders since Lewis' retirement.

I think Wlad's best wins are yet to come; in the past two years he's posted wins over Peter (dominated 10 of 12 rounds), Brock (KO7), Austin (undeserving, but mandatory and he blasted him out in 2 rounds without using the right hand) and Brewster (TKO6; another domination like their first fight untill he fell apart for some strange reason).

 

Thats pretty much what ChrisPontius and BummyDavis do with anyone in a dream match against Holmes. Put Holmes down, when called for it when they exagerate, try to bull **** their way out, people leave them alone, although IMO they know that is all bull ****. They just leave them be.

 

Pot, kettle, black?

Seriously, these people may be biased against Holmes, but you are his biggest ball caddy I've ever seen. You get threads like "Best bodypuncher" and so you get replies like "Ward", "Chavez", "McCallum", "Frazier", and then you will chime in with "Holmes". He was great, but you overstate his abilities, especially in threads which he doesn't belong in, such as the hypothetical bodypunching topic.

 

Instead of crying like a little girl, why don't you accept that not everyone is on Holmes' nuts every second of the day. Boxing is subjective and some people have different views, try to live with that.

 

Holmes never rematched after a tough fight and avoided the right hand punchers that held titles in his era, Page,Dokes,Thomas,Coetzee and Weaver and I think overall you must admit that Vlad has better tools combined than any of those individuals and Holmes did not unify

 

In addition to being 38 years old, Sanders was fighting on average once per year over the previous 5 years leading up to that fight. What's more most of his best wins came against aging or washed up cruiserweights/lightheavys like Cyz, Pritchard, Cole and Cooper. Sanders had virtually no big wins over prime ranked fighters. He early stoppage losses to Rahman and Nate Tubbs, and was a pro PGA golfer, who spent more time on the course than he did in the gym. When he fought Wlad, he was 10 years older and dusted him in only two rounds. I find it very hard to almost impossible to believe that a 28 year old Holmes would have struggled with a fighter of Sanders's description going into the Klitschko fight. I also never recalled hearing about hoiw he was avoided.

Jameel Mccline was never much get excited about in his even in his prime, which he wasn't against Wlad. McCall was not rated, or perhaps just barely going into the fight with Gomez this past weekend. I don't know if you saw his fight with Samil Sam, but he looked pretty poor.

No, but Renaldo was a prime fighter, undefeated and in his 20's facing Holmes, and Holmes still kicked his ass. That is the key here. Sanders and Brewster were not prime fighters nor were they very good even at their best, yet they both knocked the **** out Wlad. This is where you seem to miss the boat on the subject.

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Sure, when Wlad was 24-0, he got a fight with 24-13-1, Ross Purity, and got his ass Ko'd. Holmes, right around the same point in his career, fought guys like Roy "Tiger" Williams and Earnie Shavers, both better fighters than Purity and beat them both. I don't think you're giving credit where it is rightfully due.

Norton was still more competitive than 80% of Wlad's top opponents. I've told you before how he feasted on men who were 35+, and not even very good at their best.

I think Cooney would have a fair chance as well, seeing as how he was a large heavyweight with a great left hook ( something wlad doesn't like ), and was 25 years old in his prime against Holmes, wheras Wlad was more accustomed to fighting past prime guys.
I also think that Spoon would have more than a puncher's chance.

This is debatable. Spinks is commonly regarded as one of the greatest lightheavyweights in history, while Byrd is not likely to remembered for much. Chris had about 20 KO's in 40 wins, and the last time he fought Wlad he was 36 years old, and dwarfed by Klitschko. You also have to consider that Holmes was 35 years old when he lost to a prime Spinks. Once again, Wlad was on the prime end of life facing Byrd. As previously mentioned in just about every post I've sent you, these are the things you have to focus on.

I have to question Peter's punching ability. In two fights, he was incapable of putting a way a past prime blown up middle weight, and his skills aren't much to write home about either. He is barely 6 feet tall in an era where the average guy stands between 6'2" and 6'6", and often shows up in fat ass condition.

Fair enough, although I think Holmes should be slightly favored. He was clearly a quicker fighter between 1978-1982, and went 15 rounds on a number of occasions in his career. He clearly had the better jab and overall tactical ability. He Ko'd or stopped about 12 of his first 14 title challengers, and beat young unbeaten prospects in their primes, who would soon go on to acheiving better things, whereas Wlad feasted on aging fighters who had neither a past nor a future. In addition, Holmes survived numerous hard shots from some of history's hardest hitters, while Wlad crumbled every time he got hit by a man who could punch.

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Did Wlad rematch Sanders, Purity or Peter? The only fighter who kicked his ass whom he rematched was Brewster who had fallen out of the ratings after 3 years of doing little else than losing to Sergui Lyachovich ( spelling)

 

Did Wlad rematch Sanders, Purity or Peter? The only fighter who kicked his ass whom he rematched was Brewster who had fallen out of the ratings after 3 years of doing little else than losing to Sergui Lyachovich ( spelling)

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Sanders was often not in the best condition, when he fought Rahman he could not Jog because of a leg injury but still had Rahman down and wobbled before he was stopped on his feet(tired)...He was avoided and he aided them by not being active and in regard to Cyz, he KO'd Cyz in 2 Clean, where Holyfield struggled to tko Bobby on the ropes and he Ko'd Al Cole clean in 1, where as Kirk Johnson Drew with Cole. Sanders also wrecked Bert Cooper clean stop and Ko'd Levi Billups in 1 and Billups went 10 rounds with Lennox Lewis...I thought Sanders was at the end of his rope but still dangerous,fast and a southpaw, Vlad was cocky and got caught still cold. **** happens

Norton after the close Holmes fight won only 2 of his next 6 fights getiing KO'd in 1 twice and getting dropped twice in a draw with Scott Ledoux, Norton had enough of a chin for Ali and Holmes but Vlad would Blast him out of there, like all of the other punchers did.

I dont think Peter gave Vlad a close fight in fact, 2 of those KDs where from illegal back of the head shots, and if you subtract them Vlad dominated him, a virtual shutout. Vlad won every round vs Purity but ran out of wind like he did vs Brewster, the Big Man has trained much harder recently and even showed late power vs Peter


I was never impressed with Roy Williams and I dont think anyone was in the 70's, he lost a decision to Glass Jawed Richard Dunn, lost to Larry Middleton, Jeff Merrit and Henry Clark, before he lost to Holmes, none of them household names in the 70's, Dunn was Ko'd 11 times in 12 losses and KO'd in 1 3 times and Williams could not stop HIM, please


As far as Cooney, Nice guy, Great left hook but I seen him get KO'd by Johnny Davis for the NY golden glove Lightheavyweight spot and Gerry was frail in every area of his body except the hook, he could not take on a puncher. Vlad is a better fighter than Gerry by far at this point.

Holmes avoided a rematch with Weaver, a rematch with Witherspoon and Williams, he refused to fight Coetzee, Dokes,Page and Thomas, Thats a lot of missed opportunitys to fight the Best contenders or Co- Champs