Wlad Klitschko KO4 Joe Louis - P4P and H2H

I agree, but commonalities that are almost identical, and have proved effective in both fighters' cases, do.

 

For some reason, the poster 'Janitor' turns me off to debating the subject technically, I need to learn to get over this before the debate continue's in serious fashion, but he doesn't **** me off, he's a classy guy, it's just his inherrant bias towards the older era's is not backed up like yours is and his posts are as extreme as mine with nothing behind them and it just turns me off and makes me not even want to retort.

I am sure you agree that Wlad beats Joe Louis even from your stance, judging by styles.

I am also sure you agree that Wlad KO 1 Galento.

 

Cross... I am not saying that you don't know what you are talking about, because you do. However, on this issue, I honestly don't believe that Louis was dehyrating himself when he didn't need to. It is unhealthy, and if you go into the ring dehyrated then you would perform horribly. Which is why even today when fighters dehyrate themselves, they blow back up 15 and sometimes 20 pounds after the weigh ins by rehyrating. This is the same reason that weigh ins were pushed back to the day before the fights, because you are at serious risk for a brain injury if you are not given that amount of time to get the fluids back in your body.

So, given the obvious reasons, I seriously don't see any reason whatsoever that Joe Louis would have been dehyrating himself. I have been there and done that, and it literally makes you feel like you are dying. Considering that Joe Louis didn't have to make any weight, then he wouldn't be dehyrating and hurting his body for nothing. However, as you said, Joe did always come in tip top shape, and kept his weight as low as possible outside of dehyrating himself.

 

Thank you for your tactful vote of confidence. Much appreciated.

Dehydrating yourself as a part of "training" began in the early 1800's when they believed dehydration would eliminate fat. The prejudice against water in training continued into the early 20th century in track and field, and seems to have stuck with boxing longer than that.

Yeah, it's strange, but they believed that dehydration did help you shed (non-water) weight and make you more efficient.

 

Nah, you should know me better than that by now. I'm the guy who picked Fitzsimmons over Calzaghe.

Louis does beat Klitschko in my opinion. Galento would lose to Klitschko.

 

Modern rules? If so, then you must doubt JC.

 

Modern rules indeed. And no, I don't doubt JC. Very good fighter, although I'm not a fan as you and China_Hand_Joe are. It's just that Fitz was an amazing fighter. His style was weird, but at least in his case you can't claim he was incompetent due to evolution--his style was just as weird in his own day as it would be now.

I'm also curious to see if Calzaghe will beat Kessler first.

 

He should have gone Cory Spinks rather than Gatti on Louis with the final rounds approaching.

I couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing.

 

Right or wrong, he'll probably never be as great or highly regarded as Joe Louis. He just doesn't have the comp today to make it happen.

 

I disagree, if he were to beat everyone he faces for the next 5 years and to do so in dominative fashion, he'd be up there. I don't think this will be the case however.

Competition comes into realisation as time goes on. Louis' wins over several guys meant absolutely nothing at the time, but are regarded now.

 

There is a big difference between controlling your water intake, and completely dehyrating yourself. In order to completely dehydrate yourself, we are talking about not drinking any water whatsoever for at least a 24 hour period before the weigh ins (let alone eating anything)... we are also talking about wearing solar suits in a sauna for hours while shedding pound after pound until you can't even sweat anymore. This is what people do when they dehyrate themselves before weigh ins. Now, half of the time you literally can't even hardly make the walk to the scale after you do this, let alone fight a 15 rounder at a top level. Yet, you can lose 15 or so pounds faster than you could imagine. Which is exactly why you see guys weighing in for a fight at 135, and coming in the next night at 150.

Just about every high level athlete who competes in one on one contact sports limits his water intake a bit, so he isn't feeling bloated while training, or fighting. However, back in Joe Louis' day the effects of dehydrating yourself would be no different than they are today, and there is absolutely no way that he put on the great performances that he did, while he was completely dehyrated. Not even possible.

And I am sure that we can agree that he didn't just dehyrate for the weigh ins, and gain it back right before the fight, as there would have been absolutely no point in that either.

I will never forget the feeling that it gave me when I dehyrated myself. Your teeth will literally feel like they are buzzing in your mouth. Your forearms, and every other muscle are cramped, and feel like like they are being pulled together with pins and needles. Climbing a flight of stairs seems almost impossible. Honestly, there would be no way in hell that anyone could be expected to perform at all under those conditions, let alone as the best in the world at the time.

It simply cannot happen.

 

Perhaps I mis-phrased. When I said controlling water intake, I meant as little water as possible without killing the guy, for periods of weeks on end. As odd as it seems, this is exactly what was done early on, and the trend survived (though not as extreme) during Louis's time. In Cribb's day (early 19th century) it was at its worst--heavy "sweater" coats, lots of runs, and almost zero water intake (all foods dried out beforehand, too).

By Louis's era, things had calmed down slightly, but the underlying idea of very little water was still around. This isn't normal control I'm talking about--it's halfway between the dehydration you experienced and what athletes would consider "normal" water intake today.

The Conn fight was also unusual for another reason--Louis did not want to be looked upon as a "bully" beating up on the smaller Conn, so he tried to drain himself for the weigh-in in the same way that modern fighters do.

 

Bad strategically. Yes, this was a criticism even at the time--which indicates that they knew the same things you do about staying away and boxing when you have a lead on the scorecards.

Was there anything tactically wrong with his performance? Were there any underlying technical errors?