Wladamir Klitschko is the new heavyweight king (long overdue)

The only superheavy (230+ lbs) I've seen who was exhibited a more or less complete skillset is Douglas against Tyson. All others have some serious flaws.

Bowe: He had great punching ability at close- and midrange for a big guy, but wasn't that hard to outjab, didn't throw a pure straight right, had no great footwork and pretty bad defense all in all.

Lewis: Also had great skill for such a big guy and in contrast to Wlad had a great uppercut, but often pawed with the jab, didn't have much inside game besides the uppercut and tying up, had decent but not great lateral movement (I think Wlad actually may have the better footwork), and relied mostly on keeping the distance when defending instead of slipping and ducking.


I think Wlad's skillset compares pretty well with these guys'. His major weaknesses seem to be mental. He shits himself under pressure and has survival instincts like an infant. This is always going to be held against him big time, but as for combination of skill and size he's up there with the best of them for me.

 

I'm a middleweight and have been in the ring against monsters. One guy in particular was heavier than the Behemoth Brothers but 3 inches shorter. He had one thing going for him -a jab. Everything else was nonsense though he could throw an arm punch and I became a pinball if it landed on my arm. I could slip his jab and get inside but it was all for nothing because I couldn't hurt him. Even the overhand rights were bouncing off his forehead like flies off a windshield. Thank God it was only 3 rounds of sparring because I had nothing left after 9 minutes.

However, I think that you are more wrong than right. You should review the tapes and watch how Wlad behaves when his opponent shows aggression and shoots inside. I often see something that suggests deep concern --I see retreat. I am utterly convinced that Wlad is not all that sure about what to do if a guy gets inside. He holds or retreats. That's pretty unimpressive.

Sam Langford said that boxing is about not letting the other guy do what he wants to do. Anyone who fights Wlad or Vitali should take that and magnify it. They have control issues... take control away from them by fighting them! Better do go down swinging than to completely screw yourself out of opportunity!

Easier said than done? Sure, but damn, so many of these so-called contenders are practicing an anti-Lanford strategy.

 

To some extent, I have to concur.

Although Wlad has definately improved his game and deserves credit for some of his more recent wins, we really haven't seen anyone step up who knows how to take him out of his game plan. Thompson and Ibragimov were too passive, and Chagaev seemed overly inhibited by Wlad's jab...

 

Rest assured I know the technical superiority of the lighter weights, but many out here do not. It's good to see that you are not one of them!

Guess what --I agree. He is very hard to beat and he is good at what he does.... but be serious man the whole of his repertoire is the jab, distance negotiation, an infrequent right, and a rare left hook. If you think that such a scant tool box is enough to make one a technician, then again, your standard is woefully low.

I don't believe in Affirmative Action for Heavyweights.

Five years? Wlad hasn't been laid to waste in the last 11 fights. Whoop-de-doo.

I wouldn't feel vindicated, I'd feel jolly. It would amuse me that your view of Wlad's as a super-sized technician wouldn't be enough... I'll go further. I'll bet that the next time he is stopped, it will be due to an amateurish mistake.

Wlad is an oversized school boy with a propellor cap in the company of Ali, Holmes, Duran, and even Liston.

Silly. What Wlad does isn't sophisticated ring craft. Again, he ain't easy to fight, but you really need to give up these inane demands for comparisons.

You merely confirm my suspicion that your standard for what constitutes a technician is laughably low. Wlad has a telephone pole jab. Therefore he is a technician?

Your mechanic must have only a wrench in his tool box. That ain't a mechanic, CP, it's a man with a wrench.

 

Hmmm... this may indicate a convergence. I will give you that Wlad has a top level jab, that he is refined with distance negotiation and that his right can be devestating. He does those well and technically correct.

But you say that is enough to call him a good technician.

I do not. I require more.

 

My hat's off to the legendary JimmyShimmy. You just rendered my pages of posts unnecessary with this succinct 98% correct summation of Wlad.

 

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, Carlos Monzon is giving you

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for this comparison.

 

Let's not confuse technical skill with strategy. You may not like Bowe's strategy in Holyfield I or Lewis's strategy against Mercer, but their skills- repertoire is a century ahead of Wlad.

Sure, Bowe ate too many jabs. Sure Lewis' repertoire shrank after Steward purposefully limited him to make him more effective, but both of them had far more skills at their command. They could fight inside --and that's a damn accurate measure.

Sh*t, take a look at Golota in Bowe I or II... there's skill for you. I see more skill in Primo than in Wlad or Vitali.

 

Fair enough.

Sounds like you're jerking off already, to the idea of it.

This is not refuting the point i made.

Again, this is not refuting my point.

If he is so weak technically, then why can't you list 20 heavyweights that are better and dominant in controlling the fight with their technical ability?

It's one hell of a wrench, though. And you don't go through so many top level opponents while barely losing a round without being a top level boxer.

See, this is just ridiculous. Carnera more skill? The man has nowhere near the jab, footwork, accuracy, defensive or offensive ability. And Bowe's defence, style or not, was ****. Even journeymen had 50% connect ratios against him. He definitely has the better inside game, but his jab wasn't dominant at all (in fact, Holyfield easily outjabbed him when he choose to) and he was slow on his feet. An old Tubbs embarrassed him.

 

No, but when the prediction comes true, you'll have to change your name from "Chris Pontius" to "Stonehands' Eunuch".

There are times that inane points shouldn't be refuted. It takes too much time and the end result would be to attach authority to things that are not authoritative.

To wit: Listing 20 Heavyweights is arbitrary and meaningless. Where'd you get 20? And even if I bothered, it would only drive us in circles. You credit Wlad with being a technician, I credit him with being a difficult speciman to overcome because of his size and few but effective tools. We agree that he's tough to beat but for far different reasons.

Wlad at 6'1, 225 lbs would be wrecked repeatedly. Why? Because he's not a technician.

You just don't get it.

Tubbs? I clearly held up Bowe vs. Holyfield I. Go watch it. If you can compare the technique of Bowe with the technique of Wlad, then go see if Bedlam has a bed for you, because you'd be insane.

 

Only if Duran comes back and beats Shane Mosley.

You're dodging the point.

If Wlad is such a weak technician, then why can a knowledgeable guy like you not simply produce this list of 20 better technical and efficient heavyweights after two requests now?

Yeah, and if Tyson was 6'7, his style would suck. So what? Fighter use a style that optimizes their advantages and there's a reason you don't see a 2 meter guy swarming, just like there's a reason you don't see a 5'10 guy jabbing on his toes. Come on man, you know this stuff.

Again, you're not refuting the arguments. If Bowe was such a superior technician, why did journeymen have 50% connect rates? Why did an old Tubbs embarrass him? Bowe's defence is ****.

 

Chagaev at no time tried to make Wlad do anything he did not want to ,you have to try and take him out of his comfort zone, anyone going in with Wlad [if they are trying to win rather than survive] has to be prepared to take chances and punches ie get inside and rattle him,draw him in to a shoot out.
I think a prime Tyson would have made Wlad **** himself.

 

That Bowe got hit so much is only partly down to style IMO. He hardly ever blocks jabs with his right or slips punches, and he doesn't use footwork very effectively for defensive purposes. For me that's a big technical flaw. He was more in need of a defense than Wlad is of an inside game. Just listen to the man speak today.

Lewis had his uppercut, but he was hardly a specialist on the inside. He also had a tendency to retreat in straight lines. Both Tua and Briggs drove him to the ropes and did some damage there. And those guys were hardly speedsters. He was also KO'd twice when making pretty basic errors.

Yeah, skill from Golota, not Bowe. While Golota sets new standards for how a big guys can box, Bowe mainly sets new standards on how many punches a human cranium can endure.

 

I agree but I think Haye has a better chance against Wlad because of Wlad's shaky chops .

 

That's not possible.

Wlad's gaping holes in his technique inviting yet another KO is quite possible.

I told you the reason already. You confuse being a technician with effectiveness. I don't believe you know the difference and this stupid question proves it. I can name you plenty of Wlad's victims who were better technicians than he was!

Here's your pacifier: HWs who were superior technicians to Wlad.

Louis
Holyfield
Tyson
Frazier
Walcott
Charles
Liston
Patterson
Tyrell Biggs
Golota
Gene Tunney
Bowe
Lewis
Holmes
James Douglas
Cleveland Williams
Michael Moorer
Dokes
Tillis
Pinklon Thomas
Tommy Morrison

....Style is not quite the same as technique.

Tyson could land jabs on taller guys. He demonstrated angles, a mastery of defensive techniques, a vast array of not only proper punching technique, but combinations to the body and head. This array of skills have nothing to do with his size and height. Tyson, under D'Amato was a well-school HW. Holyfield, trained by Benson, was well-schooled. Bowe, under Futch, was a well-schooled HW. Wlad is not a technician -he is uncomfortable and stiff, though large and powerful. Technicians are fluid and comfortable. Steward's role with him is as a strategist. You should know the difference.

Answer this: does Wlad's skillset compare favorably with Holyfield's?

Bowe was a superior technician to Wlad. He was taught by no less than Futch himself. But he was FAT AND LAZY.

No mention of Bowe-Holyfield I...Who's avoiding what?

Take a look at the last minute of Bowe-Gonzalez. Keep in mind that Gonzalez was 6'7 himself. The fight was sloppy because Bowe was overly offensive becuase he hated Gonzalez and Gonzalez was holding alot throughout the bout but watch that last minute.

* Bowe slips a jab and counters with a jab to his body.
* Bowe then parries another jab, steps in behind his own jab and nails him with a right.
* Gonzalez crashes but Bowe, because he is well-schooled, follows up with a left hook anyway.

Wlad doesn't do anything approaching this. He's robotic. He's a one-punch, stop, reset, and continue kind of guy. Nothing more. He ain't well-school in the technical aspect of his game. Again, he is very effective but for different reasons.

Now, if you are going to argue that Wlad is a better technician than Bowe then be clear about it. Say it. I dare you.