Wladimir Klitchkos speed

The Ali who beat Frazier , Foreman , Patterson and Lyle?:huh

You don't put the pressure on 70's Ali he could still out maneuver you all night long. He was still fast enough to get off first on Wlad.

 

Look, I'm enjoying the debate, and I have no issue with you not agreeing with my opinions. But it's now got to the point where you're just talking illogical nonsense.

It's just laughable for you to say that Ali's speed wouldn't have been a factor.

The David Haye fight is a perfect example to use.

Haye was exactly the same height as Ali.

He was exactly the same weight as Ali.

He had the exact same reach as Ali.

And although he had more power, he didn't possess the skill, hand speed, footwork, variation, reflexes and the will that Ali had.

He was a former CW, who'd only had 4 fights at HW going into the fight with Wlad.

Now you tell me what happened.

Did Wlad mess him up with his jab? No.

Did Wlad hurt him? No.

Did he ever look like knocking him out? No.

Once again, Haye's speed/movement, that was static in comparison to a peak Ali, frustrated Wlad all night long. There were times when Haye was trapped up against the ropes, where he only used upper body movement to evade Wlad's shots. Both guys were cautious, and it made for a very dull fight.

Yet you're telling me that a guy who was completely on another level to Haye, would have been beaten by Wlad with absolute ease?

Stop with the crazy talk.

Explain to me how Wlad would mess up Ali with his jab, when Ali would have been up on his toes, constantly circling, dancing, feinting, jumping in and out of range, making Wlad off balance?

How would Wlad have been able to have set himself for power shots that would have taken him out?

If he couldn't take out Haye who was at times stood literally right in front of him, then you can't assume he'd have taken out Ali who would have been bouncing in the centre of the ring.

With regards to Norton, Frazier and Cooper, they don't really have anything to do with this discussion.

Norton fought Ali in the 70's, when he was heavier and past his best, when he no longer possessed the movement that he'd had in the mid 60's.

Frazier was a small, pressure fighter who was great on the inside. He was relentless.

Cooper was also a smaller fighter, who caught a very young Cassius Clay napping.

Ali would always have had more trouble with smaller, faster fighters.

Styles make fights.

Do we really need to look at Wlad's losses, and the fact that he struggled with Sam Peter?

The way you talk about Wlad, he's this invincible machine.

You say that nobody of Ali's weight would have had a chance to have beaten Wlad, yet you'd have given Mike a 50/50 shot, who only weighed about 8 pounds extra.

Now in my honest opinion, Wlad is a great fighter, and he'd have been a very dangerous fight for Ali. I'll tell the truth. But again, you are living in a fantasy if you think that Wlad would have beaten him as though he was nothing. And again, we haven't even looked at the psychological aspect. There's a possibility that Ali could have psyched him out before they'd even climbed through the ropes.

 

Haye stood upright and leaned back against the ropes, yet Wlad couldn't take him out.

Haye also didn't eat a left hook after 3 rounds.

Again, Ali and Haye had the same height, reach and weight.

Who was the most elusive?

Haye came out of the fight unscathed. (apart from his toe )

Stop exaggerating.

 

Its a figure of speech lol But that was a long reply just about turtles haha

 

I found it very informative.

 

Your posts don't make any sense.

They are illogical.

How the hell would Ali's speed, NOT have been a factor??

You are talking absolute nonsense mate.

Now before we go any further, just tell me how Wlad would have messed up Ali and knocked him out, when he couldn't do it to David Haye, who was the same size as Ali, but far less talented??

From reading your other posts, you obviously have knowledge of the sport. But on this thread, you've just been blinded by your love of Wlad.

Saying that Ali's speed wouldn't have been a factor is beyond stupid. Haye's speed was a factor in Wlad's fight against him, and Haye was static in comparison to Ali.

Yes, Frazier did hit him. A lot. But Frazier was a small, pressure fighter, who was absolutely relentless. Styles make fights. Just because Frazier had success, it doesn't automatically mean that Wlad would have done, even if you think that Wlad's superior to Frazier.

You're not a casual fan. You know about triangle theories and stylistic match ups.

Stop being silly.

 

Wlad would SIMPLY have picked him apart?

Just like that?

Right.

And Ali would have just stood right in front of him would he?

You haven't given me any realistic reasons why Wlad would have won.

If Wlad would have knocked him out easily, why couldn't he knock out Haye?

If Haye was trapped up against the ropes, yet could evade Wlad's power shots by upper body movement alone, then how could Wlad have simply beaten Ali, when he'd have been up on his toes in the centre of the ring?

Explain it to me.

You're saying that Ali's movement wouldn't have troubled him, even though that me and you both know that Haye's movement troubled him, and that Haye was slow in comparison.

We also know that Sanders, Brewster and Peter could tag Wlad easy enough, and they were no taller than Ali, nor did they have a bigger reach. Granted, they had more power, but Ali had respectable power, and he was much faster and more skilled.

I've posted you a video of Ali throwing a blistering 5 punch combo in the centre of the ring, that you've completely ignored.

You are completely biased.

But just answer the points regarding Haye, and I'll be happy.

 

Not his chief asset, to be sure - and he isn't on a par with guys like Ali or Patterson or Byrd or even lesser (but still undeniably faster) guys like Tucker or even Tillis - but no, he definitely isn't slow for a heavyweight of his size. His speed is good enough, as good as it needs to be.

 

All of them? :conf (near-prime, anyway)

I'm not disparaging Wlad, that wasn't the tone of my post at all; you don't have to mount up and play white knight or make excuses for him about the extra poundage.

His speed for his size, like I said, is good. In particular his 1-2 is delivered quickly enough to surprise most opponents as they are unused to seeing that much speed come at them in today's division. He is also, obviously, a much greater fighter overall than either Tucker (an underachiever who might've been in the same league in terms of natural talent) or Tillis (an overachiever with nary a shred of Wlad's sum talent)

Isolating the one single attribute, he isn't faster than anybody I mentioned, though.

 

uncletermite,

How exactly would Wlad have found Ali easy, and then knocked him out early?

If Wlad was as great as what you think, he'd have destroyed Haye.

The fact is, he couldn't knock out a former CW who was stood right in front of him. So you're dreaming if you think he'd have took out Ali early, who wouldn't have stood still for even a second.

So what if a lot of today's guys are bigger?

At 6'3, with an 78" reach, along with his unique speed and skills, Ali was capable of beating any HW in the history of boxing.

He wasn't a small guy.

Let's have a look at some of today's other HW's:


David Haye

Bermane Stiverne

Bryant Jennings

Alexander Povetkin

Ruslan Chagaev


They are all roughly the same height as Ali.

They all have roughly the same reach.

Apart from Stiverne who's out of shape, they are all roughly the same weight as what Ali was.

Apart from Haye, they are all in today's top ten, and they've all had certain degrees of success. So why would Ali have not fought at HW today? That's a stupid thing to say.

If Ali was around today, with the mindset he had when he was fighting, he'd have gladly fought any HW on the planet. He fought Sonny Liston at 22. He fought a monster in George Foreman when he was past his best. He wouldn't have given a seconds thought about fighting Wlad, Wilder and Fury etc. And just to remind you again, Ali's unique attributes could have overcome disparities in size and strength.

You say that Ali would have had a tough time getting inside his jab? Yet plenty of other guys who had far less talent than Ali, but who were the same size as him, could manage it.

So your video of Wlad taking out Ray Austin, is all the evidence that you need, to prove that he'd have taken out Ali with it?

Your opinion of what you think would have happened, isn't at all realistic.

Again, fighters of Ali's size got past Wlad's jab with their speed, and they either beat him, caused him lots of problems, or they went the distance.

Again, Sanders, Brewster, Peter, Haye and Povetkin were no bigger than Ali, and Wlad didn't mess any of them up and take them out early. Yes, they had more power than Ali, but again, Ali had respectable power, and his speed and skills were on another level to those guys.

Wlad could well have beaten Ali. Not once have I said it wouldn't have been a possibility. But again, it's just ignorant to think that Wlad would have taken him out in a few rounds like he was a nobody.