Wladimir Klitschko Retires - Where Does He Rank ?

I ran away at this point - fast.

 

ill say it loud and proud. Still an all time great and the primary champ during an era people think is one of the toughest ever (eh). Just don't think he's the slam dunk #1 ever. Thats the part i cant deal with. People who aren't boxing fans spit his name out because hes the famous guy when people ask them who the best ever was. thats so annoying. Joe Louis was the best HW ever. then Rocky. etc.

Im pretty certain im right on this. Hes overrated. That doesnt mean hes not a legend or ONE of the all time greats. hes just not THE atg.

o-ver-ra-ted *clap , clap, clap-clap-clap*

 

You said and i quote "i think ali is the single most overrated athlete in any sport ever".

 

Who do you guys consider his 3 best wins? What we're his signature fights?

 

Once he reached his prime what fighters under that weight did he last the distance against?

 

Ok.

 

he can be overrated and still be an all time great. so yes...that quote is still correct/not contradictory.

if Bart Starr is a hall of fame quarterback. If everyone you met said he was the far and away best QB of all time, you would say hes overrated. so yes...ali is overrated.

saying someone is overrated doesnt mean they arent good, or even great. *swish*

 

Perhaps....but if you tried telling me Tom Brady and Joe Montana were overrated, I might say OK....but if you were to rate Bart Starr above them at the same time, espousing how overrated they were, I might not think your rating was very balanced or realistic.

 

ah. ok so the wlad thing is the issue. im fine with that. wlad had more title defenses, was champ longer, fought bigger and stronger competition, etc. i can come up with a lot of factual arguments why its not an easy win for ali, but im sure there would be some reason none of them counted.

but regardless of all that, i still think ali was overrated

 

Ok so you've already said you rate Louis and Marciano above him. What other heavyweights do you rate above him?

 

This was my top 10 sir.

1.) Joe Louis - so great for so long, no major weaknesses and fought everyone despite the whole bum of the month club thing. skilled, athletic, precise, etc etc etc. to me the top pick is easy.

2.) Rocky Marciano - beat the guy that was so great for so long, and somehow stayed undefeated despite several tough fights against much bigger guys, big power

3.) Lennox Lewis - fought everyone, one of the top 4 or 5 most physically gifted hw's ever, smart. along with wlad, id say one of the most cerebral hw champs ever.

4.) Larry Holmes - so great for so long, amazing jab and precision, great movement, and extremely hard to beat his style (obviously)

5) Wladimir Klitschko - so great for so long, best 1-2 in HW history. huge left hook, didnt just win fights, dominated nearly every second of ever round for almost a decade.

6.) Muhammad Ali - fought in a time before the super HW's came to be. all the 'for' arguments are pretty well known. crafty as eff, one of the smoothest HW champs ever

7.) George Foreman - great in several eras, changed his game to somehow be effective with no movement.

8.) Evander Holyfield - i dont always associate toughness and entertaining courage with being good. but holyfield was obviously awesome esp considering he was a blown up cruiser

9.) Jack Dempsey - long reign, crazy power in both hands, fun style

10.) Vitali Klitschko - Also underrated, im sure you know all the pros/cons ad nauseam on vitali

you can come up with some legit argument against everyone here, im sure weve both heard them all a zillion times. i just dont think ali was as good as 'best ever'. he was a top 10 ATG in a tuff era. not the best hw champ ever, and not the best p4p ever (ive heard that one too more than a few times)

 

bottom line is i dont think hes some sacred cow that is beyond reproach and that pisses off casual fans to no end. in my experience people that say 'ali is easily the best ever' are usually people who cant name more than one or two other HW champs, let alone current fighters, previous contenders, etc. casual (understatement) fans. not saying anyone who thinks that is automatically a casual fan, just saying it tends to be the case a lot of the time. same people say :

best bball player ever easily : jordan
baseball player ever : babe ruth
best hockey player ever : wayne gretzky
best nfl player: ...ok this one does end up being a deep convo coz american fans often know their football.

and there are arguments to be made for all the above guys, just like theres an argument for ali to be somewhere near the top or at the top. But its not beyond debate at all, and he wasnt so good that its blasphemy or something to challenge it.

 

I know some casual boxing fans, and I do not recall one of them being pissed off because of my boxing analysis...rather I get peppered with questions on the occasional time the conversation turns to boxing. Casuals generally don’t have deeply ingrained understanding or opinions....

People (boxing fans not casuals) do get confused when you make a strong point and defend it merely by saying he was overrated. There are many people on here who rate fighters differently, and sometimes the debates get heated....because fans not casuals are passionate and get heated in debate and dialogue that is either contrary to ones suppositions or just contrarian in general.

I am not an Ali fan...don’t like him as a man a person or a boxer but that has nothing to do with rating him high or low. I think he can be overrated especially in H2H conversations, and even sometimes in debates over 1-2. I have yet to see any respectable list that rates him 3rd or higher...I would be interested as a Holmes fan who rates Holmes #3 (Ali 2) and picks Holmes to beat Ali H2H, to know why Ali would be 4 spots behind Rocky, 2 spots behind Holmes and even behind Wlad (whom I rate higher than most l)? I am genuinely curious.....since I am not fond of Ali if you can give a credible reason for me to demote him I would be appreciative, but I don’t see the evidence for it

 

well. i dont mind being an unpopular / hated opinion at all. doesnt make any difference in my thoughts. i also am not a fan of ali as a man at all. but that doesnt mean he wasnt a great boxer. you kinda lost me a little on the head to head thing. i am not necessarily saying ' a is better than b so a is so far better than C'. but thats the nature of top 10 lists, you have to eventually settle on a first spot, then a second, etc. cant have half of them tied.

there are two ways id argue my claim.

1.) to there simply isnt enough positive to make him the clear #1. no one gets to start out as a default best ever and then the only arguments are to bump him. he beat Foreman, split with frazier. Who else did he beat? beat spinks...and lost to him. lost to holmes (older i know but still counts). lost berbick. beat a 37 year old floyd patterson. He just doesn't have this amazing body of work that people seem to think. Foreman and Frazier are tuff nuts to crack. but thats 2 great wins. hardly a ticket straight to the top of the ATG list

2.) the actual negatives are style related for me. Lots of tricks. held a ton. like...he was a master hugger. often would avoid danger, refuse to engage. the rope-a-dope thing never sat well with me, seemed cheap. lacked the crazy power a lot of the ATG hw's have.

And to be 100% clear. i am not horribly offended or think a boxing fan is stupid for having Ali #1 on a top 10 list. I am saying its kinda absurd that if i dont have him higher than 5 or 6 people tend to lose their minds. thats a little ridiculous given the above evidence.