Wladimir Klitschko Retires - Where Does He Rank ?

Louis had a lot of other things going on besides just longevity.

 

Yes. So did Wlad though, of course.
How about quality of opposition ? How much greater is Louis's against Wlad's ? I'm a massive Louis fan but can't say his opposition was miles greater.
Wlad's run was pretty dominant too. I mean, he went many years where he wasn' struggling at all in there against his challengers.

The longevity is probably the most exceptional thing about him though. It's almost unprecedented in all of boxing.

 

Ali beat Norton 2-1
He beat Foreman 1-0
He beat Frazier 2-1

And in his prime:

He beat Liston 2-0
He beat Patterson 2-0

So I wouldn't say he squeaked ahead, he got the better of all of them.

I actually watched the Klit/Haye fight a few times. Because everyone was making out it was some kind of demolition job on Haye, where as I thought it was pretty close. My memory is a bit hazy now, but that so called count for Haye was never a knock-down in a million years!!! And it was definitely a much closer fight than people made out. Should have been a rematch.

And actually, the antics that the Klitschko team were trying to pull against Fury, they actually tried to use a dodgy ring, to slow Fury down to level it out a bit, the Fury team spotted it and got the ring changed the night before the fight, I suspect they pulled the same stroke 4 years earlier against Haye, only against Haye his team didn't spot it. I remember as well before the fight, Haye had to fight his way through the German crowds to make his way into the ring. Obviously another dirty stroke the Klitschko's pulled.

On another day, another night, another month, another venue, Haye could have easily won that fight.

 

This is a good post.
While I wouldn't personally rate Lewis and Wlad that high, or Johnson either probably, I can see your list shows consistency with recognizable criteria.

 

None of which were "easy" wins by any stretch of the imagination. He needed every drop of fortitude to pull it off. Many say Norton ought to be 2-1 over Ali.

A demolition job, no. Klitschko rarely put in demolition jobs anymore in case he gassed out again. But a clear, and lopsided, points decision wherein WK fully used his defensive skills and size advantage ... yes. Haye is no slouch. He's clearly an excellent fighter that would give many historical greats some problems. It just shows the gulf in class that Wlad was able to handle him in such a routine fashion.

We'll just have to disagree.

 

Reasons aside i can't look past Wlad not fighting the best or second best of his era. You can't say this about Louis. How can it be dominance when realistically he didn't dominate the division for much of this time at all. He may not have even been the best of his era, there's every chance Vitali would have rolled him.

Louis doesn't not have this asterisk.

 

C'mon, you and I both know that history is littered with fights where one guy has been beaten comprehensively in the first fight and come back and won the rematch easily. Haye wasn't beaten badly, he was never hurt, he could have easily turned that round, especially as I suspect he would thrown the shackles off a bit more the next time round.

And as I say, I'm highly suspicious about the ring that was used, given what happened prior to the Fury fight and them forcing the ring to be changed.

Also Haye got a lot of ridicule because of his toe, well I've never broken my toe, most I've had was an ingrown toenail, but even that you can't move around nearly as comfortably as in normal circumstances, a long time ago now that happened but I don't think I was playing football for a couple of weeks till I finally got an appointment to get the nail removed, before that I was limping around, I certainly wouldn't want to face the biggest night of my life with what would probably seem to others like a fairly minor injury, and it is a minor injury, but it will effect your movement.

 

Ali had it both: the record and longevity. That is why he is TOP 3 ATG.
Wald only his longevity.

 

I personally think Vitali > Wlad H2H to be honest.

 

Assuming you're right for the sake of argument, Wlad had discharged his duty. He'd met Haye and whupped him pretty easily all things told. It was really up to Haye to come charging back and forcing Wlad into a rematch. Instead he fought Chisora nearly a year later and then decided to virtually retire. It's clear that a rematch with Wlad wasn't hs burning priority.

Does Wlad get magic boots that walk on a different ring? Surface is the same for both of them. Fighters always have a bunch of excuses when they lose and they thought they would win. Even Wlad has done this before eg "I was drugged!" when he imploded against Brewster.

 

Wlad not having proved himself better than the second best of his era by facing him in the ring definitely is what count the most against saying that he dominated that era. On the other hand, the same is true of most aside from Louis, Marciano (his era being quite short, though) and Ali.

 

He was trying to force a rematch. You already forgotten him turning up for the Vitali/Chisora press conference trying to force their hand? Then Chisora inexplicably charged after Haye, and Haye knocked him out. Cue cries from Chisora of "he glassed me, he glassed me".

Then the Klitschko management promised that the winner of Chisora/Haye fight would get a shot, but it never materialised. The Klitschko team had no interest in making that fight. They were happy to settle for being 1-0 up. The fact Vitali never faced him as well is suspect.

Yes, but it is a leveller. If one guy is faster than you, then you can take away a lot of their advantage by using a slower spongy ring. Of course it slows you down as well, but it will slow them down more.

I used to play a lot of football (soccer), and it is a common tactic for the bad teams to use a poor, muddy pitch. Of course both teams have to play on the same pitch, but for the better team, the guys who are better passers of the ball, the guys who are better at dribbling, playing on the bad pitch hurts the better team more than the poorer team. The old adage of "well they both have to play on the same pitch, so it makes no difference" is a simplification of the problem, it is a deceptive argument.

 

Yeah, there's a number of ways to rank fighters that are all reasonable. Some give Foreman a very high place for his achievements, for example, and I can see that even though I myself put more emphasis on how well a fighter did during his best years and how many they were..

 

Shhhh. Keep a lid on it. Stop posting in this thread.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of becoming mandatory rather than WWE antics, but, OK.

So Klitschko hobbled himself? I thought he was smarter than that.