Wladimir klitschko surpasses HW greats if...

so... you think someone fighting bums is better than Ali?

Thensurely there are thousands and thousands better than ali.

 

Is the better ability wise though, more difficult to beat?

 

I just feel like you can't compare Wladimir's resume or any resume from this era to previous ones without acknowledging the massive differences that boxing in general underwent.

With all the cherry-picking, padded match-makings, dozens of alphabet titles, PEDs, extensive training camps, professional nutritionists and strength-coaches, less rounds, safety-based refereeing, less overall fights per year and modern sports medicine it's much, much, much easier to be sucessful for a prolonged period of time.

What Joe Louis accomplished during the toughest and most merciless era of the sport is near impossible to surpass and it rightfully makes him the greatest heavyweight of all time.

 

Undoubtedly better ability wise. All you have to do is go to yutube to see that. As far as being more difficult to beat. Probably, but no one can say with any amount of certainty. Its irrelevant anyway, greatness is not determined by fantasy fights.

 

Joe Louis did not fight black fighters between Lewis and Walcott. Some of them are quite good and appear very high on Boxrecs ATG list. We don't know if Louis fought the best of his era, because, and it pains me to say, when he found it difficult to make money fighting black fighters, he drew a variation of the color line.

What is more, Soviet fighters were not allowed to turn pro in Louis era.

I love Louis, but the point is, every era had its vagaries. In some era wars killed or maimed men that otherwide would have been contenders. In others, there was the color line and/or the iron curtain. In some, there were split title which allowed guys like Holmes to avoid his best contenders. In others, there was not the steroids testing that we have today.

And on, and on.

Bet Sugar was essentially correct in saying that the only way to judge a fighter is in his own era. That being said, Wlad's stellar career of 18 title defenses, and the 5 of the lightly regarded WBO belt, cannot be dismissed. He is a great fighter of sorts.

Better than Ali? Better than Louis? Not by a long shot. But one of the greatest.

I have Ali and Lewis are the two I think are better than Wlad in every respect.

Louis, Marciano and Joe Fraizier definately have better legacies, but they are smallish crusier types who just do not match up physically. Depends how you see it.

Holyfiled imo has the second greatest record of all time, but there is the whole "Evan Fields" thing. Depends how you see it.

Johnson has a terrific set of wins, but again, he fought mostly smaller, less talented men by today's standars, and with adiffernt, less evolved, stand up style of boxing. Depends how you see it.

Wills defended the "Negro" title 26 times. I feel this was a far more legit heavyweight title than any single ABC title from today, others would not agree. Depends how you see it.

The popluar Dempsy and Sonny Liston are not even on my list. The big wins and long title reigns are not there. Depends how you see it.

Foreman has terrific wins agaisnt Fraiser, Norton, and Moorer, but neglible title reins. He was a great fighter without being a great champ. Depeds how you see it.

Holmes has a comparable record to Wladdy with arguably slightly better wins. A lot of his best wins, however, were quesionable (Witherspoon, Norton, Williams). Do we count controversial wins, or is there an asterix there? Depends how you see it.

Tyson's early reign was a thing of beauty to behold, but in the end, he beat up a lot of old men, fat guys, and drug addicts. Some were two or three at the same time. Depends how you see it.

And on and on.

I just want my contribution to this thread to be tha there things are not subjective. In my mind, Wladdy is somewhere between 6-10. I have no problem with anyone saying top 15 if they can back it up. Anything lower than top 15 or higher than 6 is delusional....imo.

 

Nothing else Wlad does will move him higher in the ATG heavyweight rankings.
He is firmly top 10-15

 

Yes I agree, Wlad is top 10. I made my point in order to aruge that records and numbers don't always mean everything. Wlad's record is the best of all time on paper, with so many wins, defenses, knockouts and victories over undefeated opponents. A lot of people use these numbers to praise him as the greatest. But in reality all these records fall apart when objectively broken down and ****ysed.

Still, his reign is impressive by any standard. Nearly 10 years and 19 defenses, no history of ducking, completely cleaned up the division, and has a number of impressive wins that I deem to be world-class. Guys like Haye, Byrd and Povetkin.

Fighters I'd put in front of him are very few. Louis, Ali, Lewis, Frazier, Holmes. About it. Holyfield is too inconsistent with a good part of his legacy at cruiser. Vitali's reign is spurious on every level. H2H is where they excel for me. Foreman has a number of elite wins, but a whole lot of bum-crushing and losses that shouldn't be there. Tyson's reign IMO had A LOT of good opposition, but it was cut off way too short. Overall Wlad stacks up pretty well.

 

No because the fact remains it's been really shallow at heavyweight since around 2002.

Okay not Wlads fault but it is what it is he has dominated with his brother in a weak era.

Both ATG heavies but some way down the list due to lack of talent in the division.

95% of their opponents have been pie eating truck drivers.

Oh and Lewis would have stopped Vitali by the 8th round rewatch the last minute of round 6 Vitali was done can see it in his body language trying to play dancing with the stars with Lewis.

 

Precisely. He did what he could (fight everyone). At least Povetkin paid off.

 

so you are saying that 64 out of his 67 bouts were against pie eating truck drivers???

 

yea okay 91% then he's got like 5 or 6 solid wins rest are bums mostly out of shape stiff robotic flabby short dudes and any other notable names were old and way past their best.

Come on man look down the list you know in your heart it's true.

 

He'll be #3 for me. Wlad is great and will beat Fury, Wilder, Povetkin or whoever comes after next but you can't become the GOAT without beating the other best. I know they were brothers, they couldn't and shouldn't fight each other but still.

 

The Povetkin fight was a disgusting display of "boxing" by Klitschko.

 

Top 20 HW's, yes?

 

He'll say no and I'll counter with this link. But hey,.what would these guys know, right?

http://www.ibroresearch.com/2006/09/heavyweight-rankings/