Wladimir Klitschko vs Joe Frazier -- you know this is gonna be divided.

Point is an attrition puncher does not hit like a Mac truck.

 

So now Frazier is an ATG. Really, why? Because he was Murican? He won the title beating Ellis ( I don't count the NYSAC version because it was only ever recognised in certain Murican states, and even then not all of them ) defended it against Foster ( Light Heavy ) Daniels and Stander ( all previously beaten ) plus the unbeaten though come backing after a 3 year lay off Ali, before getting totally annihilated by Foreman in 2 rounds.

Then it was a close fight with Bugner who hadn't even been in a world title fight at the time, rematches with Ellis and Quarry during which time he was also getting soundly beaten again thrice. Oh and a pitiful draw with Jumbo Cummings.

Some ATG.:roll::roll:

 

It is definitely NOT a big margin, particularly against a guy who had previously managed to lose to Jack Bodell, and Larry Middleton, and who later managed to lose to the even more useless Frazier in Marvin, 5 months before Holmes annihilated him inside a round.

Klitchko with consummate ease.

 

And what would Chuvalo know about Mac trucks, or any other kind of trucks for that matter?

Nothing below mentions eye sockets either.

Ring Mag reported Frazier nearly closed both Chuvalo's eyes and also cracked one of the man's cheek bones.

With both eyes nearly closed this might suggest that Frazier did indeed punch with the right hand you claim he " didn't have "

Your not having a very good time in this thread all in all are you?

 

For me frazier is an all time great heavyweight but then this place has always been about opinions the only problem people that consider themselves oracles . Does anyone really consider the Cummings fight when looking at frazier's boxing career

 

Fols will often believe what they want. Bias & delusion is strong.

Yes likely all of the fighters MvVery listed hit harder-with one punch.
Frazier hit hard even for a top HW, but there are many who hit harder-few who were as good.

When someone denigrates Frazier's victories because they had PREVIOUSLY LOST, you know there is marked bias.

really, so no victory is worth much unless it is the rare undefeated boxer?
Unless of course a guy has fought nobody of note, guess that is worth more...

Frazier was a true ATG in his prime.

 

Frazier beat Klistchko? Guys please, IT'S NOT 1973.

In other weight classes it's one thing, but a 205, one armed 5'11 heavyweight is not going to beat Wladimir.

Emmanuel Steward was once asked this type of question and he said something to the effect of: "we can't even spar with a guy under 220. He's useless to us."

Do you guys thing 160 lb. Hank Aaron would still win HR titles, or that 5'7 Bob Cousy would play in all-star games, or that 180lb. Paul Hourning would be a starting halfback? come on.

 

While I do partially agree with you that size would be a major factor, too big of a factor for Frazier to overcome, I still believe that your overall premise is flawed. For instance, I think that Hank Aaron would be a star if he played baseball today. I think that Frazier has what it takes to beat most of the contenders today even if he can't beat Klitschko too.

James Toney, Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, and Tomasz Adamek's success at heavyweight ought to be enough to prove that smaller heavyweights can still make an impact on the sport, even though they can by no means dominate it like a superheavyweight can.

I also see littler guys running around in basketball and football too, even though I'm repeatedly told that those sports are only for behemoths these days. LaMichael James is a halfback for the Miami Dolphins and he's 5'9". In the NBA Chris Paul is only 6 feet tall in a game where nearer 7 foot is the average, but he's by no means the smallest NBA player of recent years. Tyrone Bogues is 5'3", Earl Boykins is 5'5", Greg Grant and Spud Webb are 5'7", Nate Robinson and Isaiah Thomas are 5'9", etc.

Skill and natural athleticism can be a great equalizer. It's just a huge problem when you run into someone just as skilled who's also bigger and stronger than you like Wlad is with Frazier.

 

Mathis was unrated, built up on a string of nobodies.

 

I would agree that Wlad's challengers are mediocre. but not down to the level of Zygliewisz, Daniels ,and Stander,and they compare very favourably with Ramos imo.

 

I see your point but boxing is unique in that it is a full contact ,one on one, sport in which the object is to physically beat on your opponent.
Being beat on by a man seven and a half inches taller and 45lbs heavier, a man who hits like a truck is a little different to being smaller and quicker and therefore more elusive, and making that work for you in a team context. . As to the boxers you mentioned:
Toney has ring smarts and defensive skills Frazier could only dream about.Byrd likewise was a cagey counter puncher who at nearly 3inches taller and 10 /15lbs heavier was in no way a Frazier replica.
Chambers was knocked spark out by Wlad with a singe left hook in a fight the Ukrainian dominated.
Again he is a defensively minded boxer, not a swarmer with no reverse gear.

This content is protected

Adamek at 6'1.5" 216lbs is again significantly bigger thana prime Frazier and we know what happened to him when he challenged Vitali.See below.


Vitali Klitschko stopped Polish challenger Tomasz Adamek in the 10th round to retain the WBC heavyweight title Saturday night.
Italian referee Massimo Barrovecchio stepped in 2 minutes, 20 seconds into the round, ending an utterly dominant performance by the Ukrainian.
Vitali Klitschko overwhelmed the game but outgunned Tomasz Adamek to retain his heavyweight title on Saturday. Alas, the champ still has yet to prove his historical mettle. Blog
The 40-year-old Klitschko was six inches taller than his opponent and used his size advantage, with the 34-year-old Adamek staggering back in the second, sixth and ninth rounds.
Klitschko improved to 43-2 with his 40th knockout. Adamek dropped to 44-2.
Klitschko and younger brother Wladimir retained their hold on all three major heavyweight titles.
"I think the referee made the right decision. He probably could have stopped it a minute earlier," said Wladimir, who holds the IBF and "super" WBA titles as well as the minor WBO and IBO belts.
Wladimir revealed the next Klitschko fight will be in December.
Adamek was cheered on by the majority of the 42,000 fans at the sold-out municipal stadium.
"He's a very good boxer," Klitschko said. "He was a cruiserweight champion, he was a light heavyweight champion, but he's not good enough to be a heavyweight champion because it's a whole other league."


Therefore I say your examples work against your argument. But I liked your post.:good

 

Frazier " Bugner is a great fighter".
Moore " Durelle hit me harder than Marciano"
Foreman "You mean that thing was his hook?"


Meaningless post fight comments.

 

Ok, lets pretend the Cummings fight didn't happen. Explain the other dirge. If you prefer we can an alyse the records of all the fighters he beat, and who exactly had beaten them, and in what fashion before him.

We could even go on the 3 unbeaten fighters he faced in his entire career, in which he stands Won 2 Lost 4.

I don't mind which criteria you use to try to justify his ATG status, because I believe they will all fail. So it would appear to me you are claiming such status on the fact he beat Buster Mathis, and a come backing after a 3 year lay off Ali.

As I've said before lets just remember Frazier for what he was. An extremely brave, highly entertaining fighter who always gave his all in the ring. Anything more than that is sentimentalist revisionism.

 

Nonsense.

Pointing out that a fighters victims were previously beaten ( by whom and in what fashion ) is reality as opposed to fan boy nut hugging.

If Frazier's victims had only lost the fighters of the calibre of Foreman and Ali, then this should also be taken into consideration.

However they hadn't.

 

Though I have no particular interest in American sports I would bet good money the " athletes " you mention are team members with a specific role to play.

In boxing there is no one else you pass the gloves to, or ask to cover your ass whilst you take a breather.

So unfortunately while your post may be interesting to followers of American ball games, it is fundamentally flawed.