Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

This is such a crock of ****. As someone who actually had to undergo drug testing and competed against admitted cheaters, the K bros wouldn't even be priority targets among today's roiders… Both have tested clean their entire pro careers. Waldo tested clean his entire amateur career. They have great ****ing genes… like Lewis and Ibeabuchi and Norton.

You want cheaters from recent memory, start with Holyfield and Golota...

BTW, Dolly Parton had breast REDUCTION surgery not enhancement… you damn ignants...

 

I am very against PEDS & its immoral deprivation of money, success & fame for the honest: caused by cheaters leapfrogging over those who do not cheat. And many things can not be tested for, & many sports have testing proticals that permit fairly safe cycling.

But what is the visible evidence the Klitchkos juice?

 

EVERYONE tests clean when he takes a **** test nowadays, because the body does not dispose of HGH through urine. You mention Holyfield and Golota; they've never failed a drug test, neither has Tyson, neither has J.M Marquez or Paquaio, or Hopkins, and they're ALL dirty. Only a juiced-to-the-gills bodybuilder like Shannon Briggs will ever fail a urine test nowadays, and he's only failed ONCE.

The difference between these guys and the K-Brothers is that they started juicing AFTER their growth plates were closed, that's why Tyson is 5'11. Growning up in a Russian sports academy in the 1980s THEY...HAD...NO...CHOICE.

It really is that simple.

[url]http://www.steroid.com/blog/Why-Russian-Athletes-Often-Remain-Heroes-Even-After-They-Are-Caught-Using-Steroids.php#[/url]


Oh, and by the way, Bro:

[url]http://styleslum.com/dolly-parton-plastic-surgery-breast-implants-facelift[/url]

 

Growth Hormones accelerate the synthesis of testosterone in the body, therefore, men become MORE masculine, and take on corresponding characteristics. One of the main advantages of steroids to a combat sport athlete ABOVE AND BEYOND a baseball of football player is that the headbones, forehead and chin particularly get thicker and harder. The K-Brothers have thick neanderthal brows and ultra thick, square chins. They also, particularly Wlad have alarmingly low levels of bodyfat for men in their late 30's. As you get older, the testosterone decreases, and and the estrogen (female hormone) increases, this is why older men are less violent than young ones.

Look at Stallone, Ah-nold, or Randy Coture to see how thick and "masculinized their skulls are.

If you want to see an example of a roider vs a non roider, you can look at two fights, Klitchko - Chambers, and Anderson Silva - Sonnen or Weidman.

Anderson Silva is a bit skinny/fat in those fight, and that's what, even hard-working 38 year olds tend to look like. The guy can easily fight 5-5 minute rounds so he is in great shape for a NATURAL athlete. he gets thrown around like a rag doll, and his superior skill allows him to defeat Sonnen but now weidman.

Same thing with Chambers, he looks like some fat 13 year old in the ring with a 6-7 caveman.

Also, watch PAq- Marquez IV. For the first three shots, Marquez hit Paqiauo with everything but the ringpost and Manny never took a step back...

Somehow he comes back at 40 more muscular than he was at 25 (because he's "working harder" I guess,) hit's Paq once and he's out for 5 minutes.

Mark my words, when Anderson Silva comes back next year, he will look like the 40 year old Marquez, and kick people's asses terribly and everyone will gush about how he's "found the fountain of youth.

 

Alright Man, thank you.

I know many juice & always find it repugnant. What a sham to employinh honest competition & real developed skills only.

But you must know that there is overlap betwennatural folks & juicers in terms of appearance? Jay Leno & other non-athletes can have thick bones in "suspect" places. And how are you sure all thos eguys juiced? Tyson without being tall was ~ 200 lbs. by his early teens. That testing can be porpus or incomplete does not prove everyone who is big & thick is on PEDs.

IF everyone was using, a Silva or Marquez could not kick everyone's ass, since all would be using. The link you put in-OK, but there is zero specific evidence or claims in that article that the k-bros were juiced at all, let alone from children. Yes the Soviets have been very effective here/bad-does not show how they were "supplemented"
I am not saying it is untrue; just no evidence presented there.

Many folks can have very low body fat at all ages-hard, but with genes, discipline, great nutrition...It is a matter of diet & exercise influening metabolism, & calories in/out.
Maybe the other factors show they may well juice: I dunno.

Do you not know that there can be outliars like Hopkins? Now he MAY be guilty, but just looking at his ageless accomplishments (though he still needs some little breaks in fights to conserve energy) do not show me.
Guys whose facial bone structure shifts in adulthood-arold, Stallone certainly, Bonds & his head-certainly juicers.

It is hard to tell. Unless a guy is just huge (especially with low body fat), or gains very QUICKLY (when already not a novice lifter), & maybe has bad body acne..
Hard to really know for sure who are the scoundrels.
And some who LOOK normal cheat! Like taking things that maximize the strength increases possible without bulking up appreciably (A-Rod).

 

HISTORICAL OVERVIEW OF DOPING

Performance-enhancing drugs are not unique to modern athletic competition ...


In the 1950s, the Soviet Olympic team first used male hormones to increase strength and power. When the Berlin Wall fell, the East German government's program of performance enhancement by meticulous administration of steroids and other drugs to young athletes was exposed. These well-documented and controlled hormonal doping experiments on adolescent athletes by the East German Sports Medical Service yielded a crop of gold medalists (mostly young females as they responded more dramatically to male hormones).

The world became acutely aware of the extent and benefits of doping in sport when Ben Johnson's gold medal was stripped in the 1988 Seoul Olympics for using the steroid stanazalol. The International Olympic Committee (IOC) medical commission had established a list of prohibited substances in 1967 and introduced anti-doping testing of athletes in the 1972 Munich Games. It was clear at this point that doping did work and, if gone undetected, would win gold medals. East German scientists from the state-run doping programs at Kreischa and Leipzig, who were disgraced in their own country, were now in demand in Asia, former Soviet Block nations and sports organizations worldwide that wanted to promote their status. Doping became so prevalent in Olympic sport that some argued that all records should be discarded or put on hold until all forms of doping could be detected and stopped. Through the 1980s and 1990s, clandestine doping programs spread from sport to sport guided by modern, albeit unethical, pharmacists and sports medicine professionals. In 1999, the IOC organized a World Conference on Doping in Sport in response to a shocking discovery of massive amounts of performance enhancing drugs and paraphernalia by French police at the 1998 Tour de France. It was at this meeting that an independent global agency was founded, the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). Its mission was to work independently of the IOC, sports organizations and governments to lead the fight against doping in sport ([url]6[/url]).


Despite years of aggressive anti-doping testing by international sports federations such as those for cycling, athletics and soccer, steroid abuse scandals involving high profile athletes continue to be front page news across the globe. Professional sports in the United States are not subject to extensive anti-doping programs, as players' unions and collective bargaining agreements prevented such extensive testing to be put into place. However, they did establish limited anti-doping programs, as the professional sports organizations recognized the potential of doping to harm athletes and their sport. In 1998, when Mark McGwire, an American baseball player, broke Roger Maris' home run record, it was revealed that he had been taking a supplement containing a precursor to nandrolone, a steroid. At that time Major League Baseball did not ban steroids and did not believe that steroids were a problem within the league. However, subsequent government investigations and former players revealed that steroid abuse was a problem in the League, which resulted in a limited steroid testing program.


In 2003, another significant event in the understanding of the institutional nature of doping occurred. A syringe was anonymously sent to a WADA-accredited laboratory in Los Angeles that contained tetrahydrogestrinone (THG), a "designer" steroid that was not known and not on the current WADA prohibited list, made specifically to avoid detection by modern anti-doping technologies. This led to a series of investigations resulting in the indictment and subsequent conviction of individuals running a performance-enhancing program for professional athletes at the BALCO pharmacy in San Francisco.


In May 2006, Spanish police arrested five people and seized a variety of banned performance-enhancing drugs and blood-doping supplies at a Madrid doping clinic. Here, professional athletes would receive medically-supervised injections of hormones and other performance-enhancing drug regimes. The 40-page police report included a clear paper trail of doping procedures on at least 50 professional cyclists. The report was given to the International Cycling Union, which led to the disqualification of 23 professional cyclists, virtually all the top contenders from the 2006 Tour de France. The final of the 2006 Tour was also tarnished, as the champion, Floyd Landis, was found to have a positive anti-doping test for steroids. Landis was stripped of the championship and discharged from his team. At this writing the result is being challenged by Landis and his legal and medical experts, claiming that the test was invalid since several errors were made in the collection, analysis and reporting of the results (lol - yes, this article is a little dated - and conceivably could be missing even more current developments and doping methods and/or "products".).

This brief overview suggests not only the historical and institutional nature of doping by athletes, but also the international development of a clandestine and sophisticated distribution network of black market doping programs that follows the modern sports industry. Today performance-enhancing programs and drugs are not the exclusive province of elite athletes, but have spread to health clubs, high schools and other at-risk populations, creating an over $1.4 billion US dollar industry that is growing daily as new compounds are synthesized and marketed ([url]8[/url]).


Human growth hormone (hGH and rhGH)

hGH is a naturally occurring hormone produced by the anterior pituitary gland and is one of the major hormones influencing growth and development. Harvey Cushing discovered the hormone in 1912 and isolated it from human and ****** cadaver brains in 1956. Two years later it was used to treat dwarfism in children by injection. The unfortunate development of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, a degenerative brain disorder, in boys who were treated with cadaver growth hormone led to the discontinuation of all products derived from the human pituitary gland. Because of this ban, the abuse of hGH was rare in sport until the middle to the end of the 1980s. In 1985 Genentech received approval from the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to market Protropin for children with growth hormone deficiency. This was the first recombinant DNA form of growth hormone (rhGH) that was safer than cadaver extracts used in the past. Recombinant DNA technology made the production of pharmaceutical grade growth hormone easier and cheaper. Genetically engineered rhGH is now marketed as Nutropin, Humatrope, Genotropin, Norditropin, Saizen, and Tev-Tropoin. Most human growth hormone used in medicine and diverted to sports doping is now obtained by recombinant technology, and is simply referred to as hGH (but it may also appear as rhGH or HGH). Unfortunately, cadaver extracts of pituitary hGH may still be in circulation. It has been reported that a Russian coach was arrested and, upon searching his apartment in Moscow, over 1000 cadaver pituitary glands were found preserved in a large container ([url]13[/url]). Moreover, the problem of counterfeit drugs also exists with hGH: illegal pharmaceutical manufacturers are now flooding the black market with hGH vials of unknown quality and safety. It is estimated that an eightweek performance enhancement regime of pharmaceutical grade rhGH will cost about $2000, well out of the range of an adolescent and the majority of weekend athletes. However, the increased trafficking of low cost counterfeit rhGH will create interest and experimentation in these at-risk populations. hGH is marketed on the internet in many forms: pills, drops and aerosol formulations; most are ineffective and shams. The normal route of administration of hGH is injection, posing an additional health risk of infection from non-sterile counterfeit drugs and the risk of HIV and hepatitis transmission caused by shared needles.


Olympic, professional and weekend athletes abuse hGH because of unsubstantiated reports that it is as effective as anabolic steroids with fewer side effects. They often abuse hGH as a steroid substitute to prevent loss of muscle after discontinuing the use of steroids. Ben Johnson admitted to using hGH along with steroids during investigations after his disqualification in Seoul. According to some controlled scientific studies, hGH does not increase muscle strength. Nevertheless, the abuse of hGH in sports is escalating, with large caches of needles and vials of hGH being confiscated at sporting events worldwide. Six months prior to the 2000 Olympic Games, a pharmacy in Sydney was broken into and 1,575 multiple dose vials of hGH were taken while nothing else was touched. Also, on their way to Australia, the Chinese swimming team were detained, as needles, syringes, and vials of hGH were found by customs officials in their baggage.
Using hGH may lead to life-threatening health conditions, especially since some estimates report that athletes who use hGH to enhance performance are taking 10 times the therapeutic dosage. Some reported side effects of hGH are abnormal bone growth, ...([url]14[/url]).

Since hGH is a naturally-produced hormone and rhGH is similar in structure, testing for doping with rhGH has been a technical challenge only recently solved by WADAcertified laboratories. Routine blood tests for hGH available at clinical laboratories will not differentiate hGH from rhGH and are of no value in determining if an adolescent or weekend athlete is doping.

 

KNOWN DOPING SUBSTANCES AND TECHNIQUES

There are literally hundreds of known doping substances and an equal number of designer, veterinary, and yet to be identified drugs and techniques abused in sports today. The 2006 WADA list of prohibited substances includes the following major categories: anabolic agents (i.e., exogenous anabolic androgenic steroids such as androstendiol, boldenose, closterbol and danazol; endogenous anabolic androgenic steroids such as dihydroxytestosterone and testosterone, and other anabolic agents such as clenbuterol and tibolone); hormones and related substances (i.e., EPO, hGH, insulin-like growth factors, mechno growth factors, gonadotropins, insulin and corticotrophins); beta-2 agonists (i.e., terbutaline, salbutamol, etc.); agents with anti-estrogenic activity (i.e., anastrozole, letrozole, clomiphene, etc.); diuretics (furosemide, hydrochlorothiazide, etc.) and other masking agents (such as epitestosterone, probenecid, plasma expanders, etc.); stimulants (amphetamines, ephedrine, cocaine, etc.); and glucocorticosteroids. WADA also lists prohibited methods, including enhancement of oxygen transfer (blood doping, efaproxial, etc.), chemical and physical manipulation (tampering or substitution of sample) and gene doping.

 

Well you ain't broke mine yet as we say in the UK:good

 

But your line of reasoning is misplaced. Since athletes are not volunteering to be tested (and would not risk exposing themselves if using PEDs) you only need to go so far as to note that Jay Leno (in your "example") does not have the related athletic development to even be brought up - in any context. It would be like if there was a new biotech drug that increased one's memory to astounding levels but made you physically uglier. Then, such a person (a user) studied for a decade reading everything he could get his hands on and then this "doped" savant took on the world's best and blew their doors off with his amazing photographic memory. When suspicions were raised about his phenomenal performance you stepped in and said "well, there are lots of ugly people so there is adequate reason to believe he is innocent".

See what I mean?

Of course, there are athletes that have never used PEDs. And your first statement "what a shame to employing honest competition" is on point in relation to those athletes. Your second statement "and real developed skills only" is probably not. These PEDs - in general - are allowing for quicker physical development and results but these athletes are still having to train and develop their skills. It would be entirely different if one could take steroids and HGH and be the best without any effort, training, or practice.

You mean if they were not using right? Because one might claim that these are two pretty skilled athletes (rather than relying upon some purely physical component like strength) - in their size range or weight class - so if everyone (including them) was using they might come off near the top (again, versus athletes of their own size).

Sure. Just like entertainers (i.e., movie/tv, actresses/actors, etc.) rarely do interviews right after nose jobs, breast implants, hair transplants, etc. and say "look what I just did".

Clearly there is an immense amount of cosmetic activity. Without public admission it is often merely supposition. Still, it is evident that using HGH & steroids from a young(er) age has certain results & using it later in life to prolong or sustain (or even enhance) a career is occurring.

Clearly some are predisposed to defend certain fighters and not others. I would tend to be more partial to Pacquiao then not. Why? 'Cos from '92-'97 I was living in Asia. I saw his career begin when he was just 16 and he was televised relatively often even though he was no one at that point. It was evident that he had some qualities that might lead him to a special career. But, in no way shape or form would I have seen him moving up to success at 140 (not even mentioning 147-154). While I have no evidence to the contrary .. I do recall the availability of HGH from Asia. I had returned to the US and it was around '05 or so, and I had a sick (dying) family member. A lifelong friend still remaining in Asia worked with medicinal products and was imploring me to buy HGH to give that person the strength to overcome their ailment (before they got weaker). It is difficult to project the effect of HGH, the natural maturation of a young Pac to an adult, and so it is just supposition based upon familiarity with HGH availability, Pacquaio, filipinos & Asians generally, and his seemingly notable "physiological" changes (i.e., his head sure seems larger and/or larger than it "should" be). Without an admission (by Pac) we will never know.

The point made about Marquez in the last Pac fight seems quite accurate. Marquez looked beyond "rebuilt". Rebuilding is difficult in middle age. How about Arce? Don't follow his career much but he sort of looked physically "rejuvenated". There are several other examples coming out of that region now.

Digressing for a moment, it is pretty evident in the Bond's case, or the various MLB power hitters that became robust body builder physiques breaking all records (even taking into account changes to the baseball's composition itself), or Evander quickly transitioning from a cruiser to a Tyson power equivalent in a few years that steroids with HGH was pervasive.

No one doubts Evander had ample "help" to retool himself. Tyson is a hard one to call. Or, hard to call when it first began. Where is Atlas to chime in with some info?

But, the other area which can (finally) raise suspicion is when athletes seem to avoid the natural aging process. It is too simple to suggest that "living right" means the hands of time are not applicable. Anyone above 40 or so can attest to that. Many below that age may still actually believe that they are going to be an exception. In Asia in my 30s to 35, I had girlfriends from 19 through early 20s. Felt like I was gonna remain (& look) young forever.

I don't care how easy life is (from economic success). If you are a female it doesn't matter if you have the time to pamper and can buy the best products and apply oils and cremes for hours religiously - you are going to age & wrinkle. Today you need regular laser resurfacings, lifts, injections, and other treatments to slow - not prevent - the degradation of time. For males, there is no doubt that the same gravitational impacts that work on females has their own corresponding/similar actions upon the male physique. Some of these "changes" can be addressed by athletic activity. The problem is that there are hormonal changes occurring on ALL middle aged adults. And, without "something" to address that then the "cure" or vaccine of increased or sustained athletic effort (even if the time is available like for an athlete - rather than a normal person with a job, career, family, obligations, etc.) becomes very difficult. It is not merely motivation but lack of energy.

As a consequence, you do see middle-aged body builders that are cut, ripped, tight, and impressive. Are they "clean"? No.

SO, it is a fair question to ask about Wlad. His body fat % does appear very low. People look at Briggs on this board and are certain he is roided. He looks pretty identical to Wlad don't you think? No great or discernible difference.

Hopkins doesn't look ripped. From ringside, he looked soft and out of shape against both Calzaghe/Wright in '08. That in and of itself doesn't preclude PEDs. OTOH, one would have to look at testosterone replacement therapies among other things (yes, he does eat right/live with a purpose). Training to fight young men (even in this weak era - relative to what it could be (i.e., due to negligible US participation %s) - not necessarily commenting in relation to that of the past) would seem to require more energy than just apples when you are 50. Anyone else over 50 that still hits the gym or has finally stopped for a half decade now that wants to comment on the realities of aging and/or getting back to the gym vis-a-vis even just ten years ago?

Why are some so ardent in their defense of Wlad? Why is Wlad an exception? I have never believed that his success is a product of PEDs. It is a product of a lousy level of competition combined with his own commitment, fitness, and being generally the largest and strongest overall among a group of 2nd rate talent. But, was he a product of PEDs since he hit his teen years? His age would put him in that period in which "disgraced" East European free lancers were in demand in other sport "programs". It is certainly easier to avoid detection with the support of the state or some large organization or later from the perch of individual control of one's situation from wealth/accomplishment.

Certainly seems plausible and physiologically possible.

Some Wlad drop-of-a-hat "defenders" are even willing to question Usain Bolt's track accomplishments on mere association, similar relation, or is it just some "darker" issue in his case that one can only comfortably fathom because of it?

But, back to your point, yes, as you said it is "hard to really know for sure who are the scoundrels".

And, why his two posts seem pretty sound as well ...

 

Good this was bumped, thanks MF, so I noted the thoughtful replyto my comments.

But Brit, Leno is very relevant. A smaller point could be who knows if Leno had the potential to be an excellent athlete, though the odds are against it. The major point is folks are indicted merely by appearance, & some guys of all physical abilities will have "outliar" jaws, chins, etc...Now if they grow in adulthood, that is another matter.

The comparison between this & great memory correlated with an "ugly" drug is an invalid analogy. besides that we could presumably tekll if someone got very ugly-& I am saying some folks always had a "Leno" look-I am not saying that there is cause to believe someone is innocent as in your claimed parallel situation, just that the look itself & great athleticism is not enough to know if a guy is juicing.

Now if the athletic improvement is implausibly dramatic based upon rate of improvement of brute abilities-considering a high level of development already-or significant facial/head changes-Bonds fulfilled both these conditions-yes, then we can be pretty sure.

And when I said "and real developed skills only" your objection seemed to miss my point, leveraged by the last word "only". Yes, the athletes are still having to train and develop their skills. My words meant that their natural abilities, dveloped skills & effort SHOULD be all that is involved.

I agree with your argument that the 2 boxers mentioned MIGHT come out near the top of their division anyway. They would still be at least less LIKELY to kick everyone's butt, since those who succeed TEND to cheat very effectively & just happen to have very good physiological responses/receptors for PEDs. nd I have no evidence that most everyone cheats. But yes, Marquez & co. might still be dominant.

We agree plenty use PEDs (& cosmetic enhancements) & about the general effects, from early or later in life.

You may well be correct about Pacquiao, & your conclusion is admirably tentative. Only if his head changed appreciably as an adult would we be able to go beyond "could be, could well not be". I did not follow his look closely, nor Arce & Marquez. Depends what is meant by, & how accurate your assessment is, re: "rebuilt" & "rejuvenated". What was he before, how much room was there for improvement, how fast was it...

Something like great DEFINITION itself, without quick muscle gain (when already pretty muscular), is not very persuasive,

I agree completely about Evander, & we know the whole "Evan Fields" story/evidence anyway. My only quibble is he never developed Tyson's power, & mainly much more strength, especially visible in the clinches, likely a better chin. Whihc are huge advantages, not to mention some PEDS help with endurance!

Some even maxamize strength without bulking up, like A-Fraud (sic) took.

Tyson was always bulky, & absent any specific evidence OR unusual changes, I have to assume while ANYONE could be a cheat, he is likely innocent.

Sure, many who delay the aging process are cheaters.
Yet there ARE genetic outliers, that combined with hard & training & advanced techniques & nutrition...I don't want the innocents smeared.

A SMALL & of females look about generation younger due to great living & genetics. Likewise for a few great athletes.

I have lifted for years, sure some middle aged guys can look ripped tight impressive...Some in lifetime clean competitions. Though their faces & skin look older, & no natural guys have teh bulk, let alone bulk AND definition of the drug guys.

It is fair to ask about Wlad. But while he MAY WELL have cheated, his provenance & looks do not show me he almost certainly did. Actually Briggs looks bulkier per square inch, but my point is there is OVERLAP between the cheaters & those who work hard & are genetically blessed.

I just do not know HOW unlikely Hopkins is to be natural.
Punching ability stays late, some older endurance athletes do great naturally. Also getting BACK to the gym is harder, but if you stay training religiously, it is easier to maintain.

Yes many defend or excoriate guys due to tribal/racial loyalties.
bolt COULD be a liar & cheater. Yet he also could have great turnover & with his stride length, be one of the bigger guys who can manage that.
I saw no rapid Ben Johnson like physiological changes.

Good discussion!

 

Marciano sticks to him like glue and ends it early.

 

Forget Wlad, how would he do against dangerous LHWs of today like kovalev and Beterbiev etc? It wouldn't be much of a departure from the small guys Marciano was fighting. I think those guys could knock him out.

 

Wlad vs Mormeck highlights exactly how this would go.

 

I'm a huge Rocky fan. The Rock had the most powerful right hand in boxing, in my opinion, but Wlad is just a huge man. Klitschko KO 7. Too much size difference.

 

:rofl