Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

You haven't made a decent post since you got here. You're as significant to me as the ads on the bottom of the page.

 

Thats your opinion. Nobody can ever take it away from you. Enjoy it. Knock out loss for Wlad under 10 rounds.

 

My posts are great little man. Don't you worry about that.

 

As much a Marciano lover as I am, I think this might be a fight where sze does matter. Rocky would be giving away 6 or 7 inches in height, over a foot in reach and about 50 lbs in weight..and it isn't fat either. Now if Rocky can reach Vlads chin consistently enough sure he could take him out but could he reach it enough? Vlad would know that Rocky first has to work his way inside and he would do his damndest to avoid that from happening. He has a very good jab and I'm sure he would use it to the max to keep Rocky on the outside. He also moves very well for a man of his size and wouldn't plan on staying right in front of Marciano...at least not for long anyway. If Rocky had Dempsey's reach and Frazier's quicker attack...at least after Joe's warmed up then he would stand a better chance of getting inside. Dempsey would fare better in a match against Vlad due to his reach and speed of attack as well as his faster hands. I could see Jack bobbing his way inside and whipping a left hook to Vlads chin that puts the bigger man in survival mode. Boxing is all about styles and as much as I love Marciano this might be a bad matchup for him stylewise and sizewise....Though I wouldn't bet my lifesavings on the outcome.

 

My contention goes further than merely that size wins this one for Wlad.

Wlad is quite simply the greater heavyweight. He has been the best heavyweight on the planet, not in Rhode Island, for almost as long as Rocky's entire career. He has been able to fend off the old guard, his contemporaries (many who have already retired) and he is working on the new guard. He is fighting in an era which recruits worldwide... Africa, North America, Eastern Europe, a power-first era for the division when heavies simply dwarf those of the '50's.

Wlad not only demolishes Marciano; he is the greater heavyweight.

 

one thing the Italian Americans have showed us is great heart, and great chins = Marciano,Lamotta,Maxim,Basilio,Canzonari, Ambers,etc.....you may be able to beat the wee fellows body but don't bank on beating the Italian American Psyche....As a boxing fan I appreciate most ethnic backgrounds, I see you have a thing with Italians so maybe you got slighted or beat up or one stole your girl.....I appreciate fighters and race or nationality matters not to me, I don't even root for all Americans just because they are Americans, I really like the Klitchko's and many European fighters but some guys like yourself have a thing beyond an opinion and that statement above is quite revealing

 

Wlad never beat the next best heavyweight out there. Might not be any fault of his own, but he hasn't done it. He compares more to Dempsey not fighting Wills.

"best heavyweight on the planet, not in Rhode Island"

Kind of a silly argument. Marciano beat every man who was heavyweight champion during his active career--Louis, Charles, Walcott.

It is Wlad who has not beaten the best men during his time--Holyfield, Lewis, Vitali. Again, not his fault, but he didn't do it.

I grant that he does have a great deal of longevity.

"Recruited from the world"

Perhaps too much. Wlad has fought too many Americans and not enough eastern-bloc fighters now that they are the top men.

Marciano's major victims were American, but why not. They were the best out there, and had beaten the best heavyweights from around the world. Heavyweights were recruited from all over then too.

Joe Louis--defeated Europeans Schmeling, Carnera, Uzcudun, Birkie--British Empire champion Farr--Latins Agramonte, Brescia, Godoy, Brion

Joe Walcott--defeated Euro champs Tandberg and Ten Hoff, as well as Agramonte

Moore--Beat the best in Australia. Beat Latin fighters too numerous to mention, and also Euros.

Cockell--won the Euro light heavy title from the Algerian Albert Yvel and defended the British Empire championship against South African Johnny Arthur.

Even Lee Savold stopped British Empire champion Bruce Woodcock.

One or another of Marciano's major victims defeated fighters from every continent except perhaps Asia which had champions and top contenders, but not at the larger weights.

Boxing was a world sport in that era, also.

There is one factoid that Wlad and Vitali have on Marciano, though. They have each been stopped on two continents. Marciano on none.

Wlad has been stopped in three different countries. Vitali in two. Marciano in none.

 

"The more I think of this match up"

This is what is known as a fantasy.

Thankfully, when I was a young fellow, mine ran in more interesting directions.

 

good stuff :good

 

:goodme too Thank goodness

 

So you made conclusions on this match-up by not thinking about it?

And odds are that I am older than you.

 

But look at what was available. A shot Louis who was only in the ring to pay off the tax man. A bona fide lighheavy in Charles. A Walcott on his last two fights after a long, damaging career. Marciano snuck in for a second at a transitional, vulnerable time in the division's history. He gets an A+ for timing.

Did anyone really want to see Wlad against Holy at any time since 2006? Really? Lennox Claudius Lewis, who I hold in higher esteem, retired in 2004. Vitali is an exceptional case in that they are brothers which I half understand/half think it is very convenient for Waldo.

Heavyweight are much more widely recruited in the geographic sense today than they were in 1950. Kazahkstan, Ukraine, Nigeria, US, UK, Belarus and Russia are all putting out top notch talent that is permitted and encouraged to participate in the pro ranks. In the 50's you could really only say that about the UK and US.

If my memory serves correct, Marciano traveled ONCE to fight outside the eastern US seaboard, and that was against Butterball Cockell in San Francisco, a fight in which many thought he should have been disqualified and a pretty wretched effort by his standards. He fought something like 33 of his 49 fights in Rhode Island, mostly in the same auditorium. So, home crowd, home ref's, comfortable surroundings and largely low-rate, third string, circuit fighters. How would he have done in other's backyards, traveling internationally with ref's who didn't look the other way on his rough stuff? I'm not convinced his career would have been radically different, but I think there would be a good chance for an L or two to be on his record.

 

You are in your seventies?

I wouldn't have guessed that.

*I am just not interested in head-to-head matchups because they have become meaningless not only in boxing but in most sports because of the clearly observable explosion is size.

Why should I value a criteria which elevates the 2012 Jets over the 1950's Browns or the 1960's Packers?

That sort of fantasy strikes me now as worthless.

It made some sense up to the sixties or so and perhaps a bit longer, as you were comparing apples to apples in a sense. A tournament between Tom Cribb, John L Sullivan, Jack Dempsey, and Rocky Marciano, while covering 150 years, was still between men of similar size. We could consider them in the same weight class.

Now the whole argument boils down to size differentials dependent on outside the ring factors which are changing the very physical nature of men.

**on the more interesting point of the shift in top fighters from the US to the eastern bloc countries. There are two ways of looking at this--is something gone that was there before--sort of like the leopard becoming the top predator because the tiger was exterminated (eastern bloc fighters taking over because America is abandoning boxing)

or is it something being added--the leopard was the top predator but has been replaced by tigers expanding range (American heavyweights have lost their dominance because of new breed of super-fighter from eastern Europe)

It can be argued either way, or that both are partially true.

 

Very valid points in regards to comparisons.

As for where the talent is coming from, as is the case with most sports, i just think that there is more interest and a better structure in place for boxing in certain countries at this moment in time.

 

That's more or less it. No need for NFL Cold War conspiracy theories. Countries with a better infrastructure for boxing and who put more of a focus on the sport are going to produce more top fighters than those which do not.

High levels of poverty also help at the grass roots level by providing a large number of willing participants.